where to pay

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where to pay

Post by mercury22nathan on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:29 am

informal poll for you guys... would rather:

The Stills camp is already aware of the receiver’s potential value in free agency. And the market is said to already be in the $12-million-a-year range, per sources.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article135184439.html

A. pay Stills $12M per.

I’ve been told the ballpark negotiating price for Hightower was at $11 million per year a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article135385319.html

B. pay Dont'a Hightower $11M per.

or

C. pay neither and roll the dice in the draft and other FA's.

just to give you an idea where that Hightower price ranks - it puts him just below some of the higher paid LBers...

...other linebackers who are not fulltime pass rushers such as Clay Matthews ($13.2 million), Jamie Collins ($12.5 million) and Luke Kuechly ($12.3 million).

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Re: where to pay

Post by rightchea on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:30 am

Since Miami LB issue is one of the worst in the league at the moment I would go after Hightower and hope that he gives the same energy that he gave with the Pats.

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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:38 am

C - neither

I'm not paying $12 million for an inconsistent #3 receiver...just doesn't make sense. I've grown to like Stills, but on this team he's simply not worth it.

Hightower is an excellent player - for the Patriots. They use him in a variety of creative ways and really maximize his skills. I'm not convinced the Phins would use him the same way...he's not worth the pricetag if you're just going to use him as a "typical" 4-3 MLB. He also misses a few games a year with injuries. Just not worth that pricetag in Miami.

Use the draft and develop young players - that's the key. But having said that, I think the Phins have backed themselves into a corner at the Guard position...that's the one spot where I think they have no choice but to shell out huge money for at least one, and maybe two, free agent Guards. That's not the path I'd want to go necessarily, but at this point it seems like the only way this team will ever field a competent OL.

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:55 pm

Agreed.

Use the money extending Landry and Jones. If you want high priced free agent give me a DB, DE or G

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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:33 pm

white1 wrote:Agreed.

Use the money extending Landry and Jones.

Have you guys seen the contracts Antonio Brown and Eric Berry just got? All I can say is... Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

I'm really curious to see how these two signings will impact the Phins in negotiations with Landry and Jones. Veteran contracts are really becoming insane right now...that makes the draft even more important.

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:39 pm

I saw them. I don't think our guys have the stats to get those deals

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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:09 pm

white1 wrote:I saw them. I don't think our guys have the stats to get those deals

Agreed, but you can bet their agents are seeing dollar signs right now. My initial thought is I don't think I mind overpaying Landry, but Jones does concern me a bit, approaching 30 and coming off an injury. I think I'd wait on him and see what happens next year...as good as he is, I think I'd be OK if he walks in 2018. Hell, with garbage at safety we went 8-2 without Jones this season.

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:53 pm

B. pay Dont'a Hightower $11M per.

Im going to make a prediction right now.

Hightower, wherever he signs, won't nearly match with his production what the market bears for him. Total free agent bust in the making.

That's just how the Patriots roll. I would not touch him in FA. I know we "need" linebackers, but IMO this is the worse kind of investment to make, fully on par with the offseason that saw the Phins sign Ellerbe and Wheeler. Don't do it. Just don;t.


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Re: where to pay

Post by rightchea on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:53 pm

I not sure the draft isn't looking so good in the OLB/ILB area.

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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:03 pm

white1 wrote:
B. pay Dont'a Hightower $11M per.

Im going to make a prediction right now.

Hightower, wherever he signs, won't nearly match with his production what the market bears for him.  Total free agent bust in the making.

That's just how the Patriots roll.  I would not touch him in FA.  I know we "need" linebackers, but IMO this is the worse kind of investment to make, fully on par with the offseason that saw the Phins sign Ellerbe and Wheeler.  Don't do it.  Just don;t.


I agree - not because Hightower isn't great, but because to get the most out of him you need to be creative. Most teams won't use him the way the Pats do, and they'll get a solid player in Hightower - but not a $10 - $15 million a year great player.

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Re: where to pay

Post by mercury22nathan on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:04 am

gee, i wonder where Armando got the idea to write an entire article about Stills versus Hightower? and his conclusion...

GM Mando would be fine with letting Stills walk and using that budgeted money plus cap savings from cutting Koa Misi to sign Dont’a Hightower for $11-$12 million per season.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article135510768.html

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:24 am

Hated the article. I am not a fan of paying 11-12 million for a linebacker, ANY LINEBACKER, but especially not an ex-Patriot who will prove to be average playing in anyone's scheme outside of New England.

Hell, where do we get the money for the 3 DEs we need? We are probably going to have to retain Branch, the top DEs on the market are already tagged, old, expensive or both old and expensive. Branch is becoming a priority because there are so few alternatives on the market.

I'd much rather see us spend money on defensive ends instead of linebackers. Draft some LBs late if you have to, priority must go to the two guards we need and on defense both defensive end and defensive tackle.

We can probably find a rotational player at DT, there still seem to be a number of guys available that you could sign to a reasonable contract. DE is becoming a huge concern, our biggest need coupled with very weak FA class.

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:35 am

To further illustrate my point, here is the link to the PFT "Hot 100" free agents.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/02/27/pfts-free-agent-hot-100/

There are 5 defensive ends on this list. FIVE. Calais Campbell is the top prospect right now at #10 overall. Next guy up? Chris Baker from Dallas clocks in at 29 on the list. Next you drop all the way to 58 for Charles Johnson from Carolina. The Cowboys Jack Crawford and the Ravens Lawrence Guy round out the list of available DEs at this point.

Can you imagine the bidding war for Campbell? He's getting OV money for sure. Do we really want to do that?

That leaves us with 4. Anyone really fired up about anyone on this list?

Now, it's not a stretch to imagine we try and get one of the last couple guys to sign a reasonable deal, meaning either Crawford or Guy, or both. But pass rushers in this market are going to be costly.

I'd probably try and re-sign Branch, sign a lesser FA, and plan to find one in the draft, which is deep at the position. The only drawback is we go into the draft with a pretty clear "need" for anyone to see, so we will be a bit predictable. However, I don't see how we can really avoid that, unless we are prepared to throw a ton of cash at Campbell.

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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:43 am

I think LB is a major hole and must be addressed for real this offseason.  We've gone the path of late round picks and undrafted FAs - it doesn't work.  Ideally, we use at least one high pick at the position.  LB is a huge gaping wound right smack in the middle of the defense, and it must be fixed.  But - it doesn't need to be fixed with a $12 million a year free agent that doesn't fit the scheme.    

There are always pass rushers available, so I'm not too worried about finding a DE that can get to the QB.  I think it's much more difficult to find a DE that can both get to the QB AND play the run.  I kinda like William Gholston in free agency, and there are several players in the draft that can upgrade our current situation.  I don't think we should bring Branch back - he's a part of the problem, not a solution.

Bottom line - if we're smart, we should be able to adequately address both DE and LB this offseason, both in FA and the draft.  Both positions have been largely ignored early in the draft in recent years, and that has to change...we need to prioritize those positions.

BTW - Calais Campbell is a player I've LOVED since his UM days...but he's not a 4-3 DE. We shouldn't even be considering him.

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Re: where to pay

Post by finfanatic on Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:36 pm

I would lean more toward paying Stills than Hightower, in as far as I think the offense will be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT without the threat of a the deep pass, but do admit the LB corps stinks.

I would much prefer the Phins draft one of the big SEC LBs and have a cheaper, younger alternative to Stills, but TanneGase ain't gonna draft a LB, and the first thing I see this season from Caroo that makes me say, "I see why they traded up for him".....will be the VERY FIRST TIME I have seen anything from him that makes me understand the trade up for him!!!

Trust Tannenbaum to do something totally unexpected like go after a Suh-like free agent. Who that would be tho.....?

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Trade for Leveon Bell? Just throwing it out this would be a total steelers move plus he's a running back.

Look at what they just paid Antonio Brown / a far fetched scenario but would it be impossible?

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Re: where to pay

Post by finfanatic on Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:54 pm

Look at W1 scare the heck out of me!

Shame on you, W1.

Very Happy

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:32 am

Look at W1 scare the heck out of me!

Well, for the sake of bolstering my argument, let's take this just a bit further:

- There were already rumors earlier in the offseason that Miami was looking at running backs in the draft, and possibly shopping Ajayi in a trade. Why? Well, the running back Gase REALLY wants is more like Matt Forte. A threat in the passing game just as much as running the ball. Ajayi is a pure runner, with limited pass catching ability.

- Le'Veon Bell fits exactly the prototype that Gase wants in a running back. He runs routes just as well as the receivers in this league. Great hands, and a threat to either run or catch on every down.

- Ross likes to make a splash in FA. You want a splash? Bell is one of the most dynamic offensive players in the league.

- Who are we really paying on offense right now? Tannehill, and most likely Landry when we give him an extension. The rest of the offense is relatively cheap. We have money and cap room to spend on that side of the ball, why not hand it to a proven playmaker like Bell?

Why would the Steelers be interested in trading away Bell to Miami? Well, I can think of a few reasons:
- They have both Big Ben and Antonio Brown on offense. Ladarius Green is poised to break out at TE. Bell may be an expensive luxury they just can't afford, they need to bolster their defense which really disappointed in 2016.

- Running backs are a commodity. They can go ahead and draft one anywhere in the top 4 rounds and probably get a guy that won't be Bell, but won't be all that much worse either.

- Bell has served a couple of suspensions over the past couple of seasons. I'm sure they're not thrilled with the prospect of paying him a record-setting salary with that risk attached.

- Do you recall how DeAngelo Williams played early last year? That just proves that Bell is benefiting as much from the offense as they are benefiting from him.

- What difference did Bell make in the Steelers losses last year? New England contained him. Hell, so did we in the regular season. They know that defense is where the need is. Tying up that much money on offense makes little sense.

- This move just screams Pittsburgh to me. They can get great value in return for Bell, use those resources on defense, find another back and be much better overall in 2017. The fact they used the franchise tag on Bell is a strong indicator, in my mind, that they would be open to listening to a trade offer. If they are not actively shopping him already.

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Re: where to pay

Post by mercury22nathan on Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:02 am

huh? why would the Phins want to give up a high draft pick or perhaps picks for a guy that...

white1 wrote:- Running backs are a commodity.  They can go ahead and draft one anywhere in the top 4 rounds and probably get a guy that won't be Bell, but won't be all that much worse either.

...could not the Phins do the same thing, draft one?

white1 wrote:- Bell has served a couple of suspensions over the past couple of seasons.  I'm sure they're not thrilled with the prospect of paying him a record-setting salary with that risk attached.

...dude has missed nearly 50% of the last 2 seasons. why would the Phins want to pay that record-setting salary?

white1 wrote:- What difference did Bell make in the Steelers losses last year? New England contained him. Hell, so did we in the regular season.  They know that defense is where the need is.  Tying up that much money on offense makes little sense.

...so that NE could contain him twice a year when they play the Phins? and isn't the Phins need on defense too?

Bell is a top notch (commodity) RB when he's on the field, but he's just too much of risk for that much money at that high of a draft pick price to get him. i'll roll with Kenyan Drake if need be.


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Re: where to pay

Post by JMP on Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:07 am

If we were a Super Bowl contender missing that one dynamic piece that could put us over the top, I'd seriously consider trying to trade for Bell. But the reality is, at least in my opinion, the Dolphins are not close - certainly not close enough for one offensive playmaker to make the difference.

I'll also add that no matter what we do on offense, we are not winning any championships with the current defense - from both a scheme and talent perspective.

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Re: where to pay

Post by white1 on Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:22 am

I've already laid out the "pros" for the Fins, and again, we know Ross and Tannenbaum love to make a big splash in free agency.

It's really all for fun, but I believe there is some merit that it could actually happen.

And I agree with you, it would not be a good move for the Fins IMO. That doesn't mean they won't do it anyways.

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Re: where to pay

Post by mercury22nathan on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:12 pm

white1 wrote:it would not be a good move for the Fins IMO.

ah, i see. you were just putting it in the realm of possibilities. i somehow got it in my head that you were advocating this trade.

so yes, i agree, the Steelers could make this move - and it would be a bad move for the Phins.

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Re: where to pay

Post by finfanatic on Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:10 pm

Yep, witness my "scared the heck" out of me line.

The more I ponder this portentous possible move, the more I think it will appeal to Tannenbaum.

And it will no doubt render about the same results as the Suh monster deal: diddly-squat!

I am hoping it does not happen.

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Re: where to pay

Post by Birdmond on Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:41 am

D. Sign Terrel Pryor

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Re: where to pay

Post by rightchea on Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:13 pm

Terrel Pryor isn't going to leave Cleveland or they won't let him go.

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