ranked last? OUCH

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ranked last? OUCH

Post by JEGnj on Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:05 pm

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins-fans-were-named-worst-group-in-nfl/ar-AAcRXUQ
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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by CarsonChris on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:42 pm

They should rank front offices and I'm sure ours has been right at the bottom! The fan base is as good as the team!

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:59 pm

The entire article makes no sense. So fans are horrible for refusing to support a shitty product that never gets any better? And I love how the criteria doesn't include things such as how fans act in general (Raiders, Eagles) which to me would be fairly important. And then the article goes on to list all the reasons why DolFans SHOULD be apathetic.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:01 am

The article fails to take into account the HUGE diehard fanbase that the Dolphins have outside of Miami.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by Degarmo on Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:45 pm

Miami is quickly turning into one of the shittiest places in the USA. It's a city filled with alphas, and it's tiresome.
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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:04 pm

Dave Hyde weighs in on this topic here:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-dolphins/fl-hyde-dolphins-fans-0714-20150713-column.html

Dave Hyde wrote:I called Manish Tripathi, who co-wrote the report with Mike Lewis at Emory Sports Marketing Analytics.

...

"This isn't just based on one year,'' Tripathi said. "The data is computed over the past 15 years."

The study attempted to level the field of fandom by controlling factors such as market size, average income, stadium size and performance on the field in a way to attempt to take them out of the equation.

Let's take a snapshot of the 2014 Dolphins. They have a market region of six million people with a median income of $47,000. They went 8-8 and drew 560,280 fans to Sun Life Stadium at average ticket price of $65.16 (via teammarketing.com).

Compare that to Dallas, rated the league's top fan base (yeah, yeah, America's Team). It has 6.5 million people to draw from with a $58,000 median income. It went 12-4 and drew 720,558 fans at an average ticket of $110.20.

Dolphins' box-office take: $36.6 million

Cowboys' box-office take: $79.4 million.

So it's the winning, right? Well, maybe. But in 2013, the Cowboys and Dolphins both went 8-8. The Dolphins made a similar $36.5 million from tickets. The Cowboys made a similar $77.6 million.

Again, the statistical model computed variables such as Dallas' bigger stadium and higher median income out of the rankings. Just as Tennessee going 2-14 in a region of 1.6 million fans and drawing a similar number of fans, at similar prices and ticket revenues ($37.1 million) as the Dolphins, put them 16th.

...

I called the NFL. I asked about local TV ratings. The Dolphins ranked 28th last year with an average 16.9 rating for games. Are you starting to hear Sammie Smith chant, "Dolfans suck?"

I don't know if it's even possible to figure this out, but I'd love to see the nationwide TV ratings for Dolphins games...I bet it's a lot higher than 28th in the league.

Regardless - like all things, this trend will turn around as soon as the Dolphins consistently put a winning product on the field. There's way too much to do in South Florida...if the team sucks, why spend a small fortune to go to a game when you can actually enjoy yourself somewhere else - and probably at a fraction of the cost? When a team is winning, going to the games becomes a happening and a cool thing to do...but no one likes a loser.


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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by white1 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:35 am

The disparity in income noted above explains the difference almost by itself.

An additional 11k a year - nearly 25% more in Dallas vs the Miami fan base - is a HUGE difference in disposable income. Buying game tickets along with the associated costs of attending a game, that's pure disposable income and one of the first things to go if money is tight for a person or family.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by rightchea on Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:48 am

CarsonChris wrote:They should rank front offices and I'm sure ours has been right at the bottom!  The fan base is as good as the team!


I would say yes to that but think of all the teams that have done worst then Miami and Miami still ended up on the bottom.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:53 am

white1 wrote:The disparity in income noted above explains the difference almost by itself.  

An additional 11k a year - nearly 25% more in Dallas vs the Miami fan base - is a HUGE difference in disposable income.  Buying game tickets along with the associated costs of attending a game, that's pure disposable income and one of the first things to go if money is tight for a person or family.

Yep, that's a great point and plays a huge role in this. Games are just too expensive for the average Joe to go to on a regular basis, especially with a family.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by mercury22nathan on Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:03 am

so how do we explain that a similarly inept team in the Titans draw from a fan base population one-quarter the size, yet produce even more game day ticket revenue?

due to its transient and transplanted population, Miami based fans are by definition fair-weather fans. but yes, i agree, if the Phins put a winner on the field, fans will fill the stadium - so long as you are winning. The Packers, Steelers, Redskins, etc, can suck for just as long, and fans will still come.

i think another important (and obvious) factor that this poorly crafted study missed was the fact that Miami has not had a true marquee star player since Marino. The Phins of the last couple decades have had a few (very few) well known and liked players, but no one that has been big enough and successful enough to put butts in the seats.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:30 am

mercury22nathan wrote:i think another important (and obvious) factor that this poorly crafted study missed was the fact that Miami has not had a true marquee star player since Marino.  The Phins of the last couple decades have had a few (very few) well known and liked players, but no one that has been big enough and successful enough to put butts in the seats.

Outstanding point. Star players put asses in the seats - no doubt about it. Ricky Williams is the closest we've come to a "star" post-Marino, but he really only had one great season. Like everything else, it starts at QB...marquee QBs draw crowds, and we haven't had one in ages.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by Birdmond on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:00 pm

Agreed Merc but I'll take it a step further. Not only has the team been bad and lacked star power, they've been painfully boring to watch. You take Wanny Ball and Tuna Ball and you've got boring football. When you had Marino even during 9-7 years the teams were a blast to watch.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:24 pm

I think what a lot of us are getting at adds up to one thing: the current Dolphins team has no identity. There's just nothing to latch onto that says "this is Miami Dolphins football." Well, nothing positive anyway! For diehard fans it doesn't matter as much, but for casual fans I think the Dolphins are just in the background and don't bring anything to the table that's worthy of attention. It's just a flat, boring team with very little to offer to the casual fan.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:19 pm

Degarmo wrote:Miami is quickly turning into one of the shittiest places in the USA.  It's a city filled with alphas, and it's tiresome.

But is it as bad as Detroit? Neutral

I do know that in the very brief time I lived in south Florida (part of '97) I couldn't wait to get out, and that was almost 20 years ago, plus I visited my DolFan grandparents there every year so I was actually a bit familiar with the area already.

mercury22nathan wrote:so how do we explain that a similarly inept team in the Titans draw from a fan base population one-quarter the size, yet produce even more game day ticket revenue?

Um...uh...middle Tennessee is a much better place to live than south Florida? The afterglow from making the SB in '99 hasn't worn off yet? Other than that I got nuthin' scratch

JMP wrote:
mercury22nathan wrote:i think another important (and obvious) factor that this poorly crafted study missed was the fact that Miami has not had a true marquee star player since Marino.  The Phins of the last couple decades have had a few (very few) well known and liked players, but no one that has been big enough and successful enough to put butts in the seats.

Outstanding point.  Star players put asses in the seats - no doubt about it.  Ricky Williams is the closest we've come to a "star" post-Marino, but he really only had one great season.  Like everything else, it starts at QB...marquee QBs draw crowds, and we haven't had one in ages.

Zach and JT are considered by some to be the 2nd and 3rd greatest players in franchise history behind Marino, and yet even they couldn't move the needle, as the kiddies say. Whoever the next big star is has to be on offense, and Tannehill unfortunately has the personality of a lamp post.

Birdmond wrote:Agreed Merc but I'll take it a step further.  Not only has the team been bad and lacked star power, they've been painfully boring to watch.  You take Wanny Ball and Tuna Ball and you've got boring football.  When you had Marino even during 9-7 years the teams were a blast to watch.

Not really. That was actually the beginning of the boring style thanks to JJ doing everything he could to rob the Fins of any and all offensive talent and running when they couldn't actually run. It's just that Marino was still around to draw and it took people 3 years to realize JJ was a snake oil salesman. I know nobody thought they were a blast to watch during Shula's final season after the first 4 games.

JMP wrote:I think what a lot of us are getting at adds up to one thing: the current Dolphins team has no identity.  There's just nothing to latch onto that says "this is Miami Dolphins football."  Well, nothing positive anyway!  For diehard fans it doesn't matter as much, but for casual fans I think the Dolphins are just in the background and don't bring anything to the table that's worthy of attention.  It's just a flat, boring team with very little to offer to the casual fan.

Hey, just like the coach! But as usual Jmp nails it. This is what happens when a team is neither good enough to make the playoffs nor bad enough to be mocked. Folks these days only know the Fins as that team who let bullying run rampant in the locker room, and even that's fading away. The Fins are just kinda...there. Just another team for the Pats to beat up on.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:24 pm

[quote="DolFan 316"]
Degarmo wrote:Miami is quickly turning into one of the shittiest places in the USA.  It's a city filled with alphas, and it's tiresome.

But is it as bad as Detroit? Neutral

I do know that in the very brief time I lived in south Florida (part of '97) I couldn't wait to get out, and that was almost 20 years ago, plus I visited my DolFan grandparents there every year so I was actually a bit familiar with the area already.

mercury22nathan wrote:so how do we explain that a similarly inept team in the Titans draw from a fan base population one-quarter the size, yet produce even more game day ticket revenue?

Um...uh...middle Tennessee is a much better place to live than south Florida? The afterglow from making the SB in '99 hasn't worn off yet?  Other than that I got nuthin' scratch

JMP wrote:
mercury22nathan wrote:i think another important (and obvious) factor that this poorly crafted study missed was the fact that Miami has not had a true marquee star player since Marino.  The Phins of the last couple decades have had a few (very few) well known and liked players, but no one that has been big enough and successful enough to put butts in the seats.

Outstanding point.  Star players put asses in the seats - no doubt about it.  Ricky Williams is the closest we've come to a "star" post-Marino, but he really only had one great season.  Like everything else, it starts at QB...marquee QBs draw crowds, and we haven't had one in ages.

Zach and JT are considered by some to be the 2nd and 3rd greatest players in franchise history behind Marino, and yet even they couldn't move the needle, as the kiddies say. Whoever the next big star is has to be on offense, and Tannehill unfortunately has the personality of a lamp post.

Birdmond wrote:Agreed Merc but I'll take it a step further.  Not only has the team been bad and lacked star power, they've been painfully boring to watch.  You take Wanny Ball and Tuna Ball and you've got boring football.  When you had Marino even during 9-7 years the teams were a blast to watch.

Not really. That was actually the beginning of the boring style thanks to JJ doing everything he could to rob the Fins of any and all offensive talent and running when they couldn't actually run. It's just that Marino was still around to draw and it took people 3 years to realize JJ was a snake oil salesman. I know nobody thought they were a blast to watch during Shula's final season after the first 4 games.

JMP wrote:I think what a lot of us are getting at adds up to one thing: the current Dolphins team has no identity.  There's just nothing to latch onto that says "this is Miami Dolphins football."  Well, nothing positive anyway!  For diehard fans it doesn't matter as much, but for casual fans I think the Dolphins are just in the background and don't bring anything to the table that's worthy of attention.  It's just a flat, boring team with very little to offer to the casual fan.

Hey, just like the coach! But as usual Jmp nails it. This is what happens when a team is neither good enough to make the playoffs nor bad enough to be mocked. Folks these days only know the Fins as that team who let bullying run rampant in the locker room, and even that's fading away. The Fins are just kinda...there. Just another team for the Pats to beat up on.

Also, the heat and humidity *has* to have something to do with it. It's a fact that this kind of weather tends to make people angry. That's why all your big riots and crime spikes happen during summer. Nobody feels like forming an angry mob or going on a rampage when it's 30 degrees or less out and ice is all over the roads. No wonder Bills fans put up with that team year after year.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:33 pm

DolFan 316 wrote:Zach and JT are considered by some to be the 2nd and 3rd greatest players in franchise history behind Marino, and yet even they couldn't move the needle, as the kiddies say. Whoever the next big star is has to be on offense, and Tannehill unfortunately has the personality of a lamp post.

Yep, Zach and JT were the biggest names, along with Ricky Quitter, since Marino. I should have mentioned them... Embarassed

And yeah, Tannehill doesn't exactly have star power...he's more like the QB version of Philbin!

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:38 pm

I have a few issues with PFR's Approximate Value system, but generally find it to match the eye test. Here's their list of best players in Fins history by that criteria.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/career-av.htm

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by Degarmo on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:36 pm

Also, the cost of living in Miami is pretty high, so with lower incomes, plus higher cost of living, and a boring, crappy team with no star power, panache, flair, personality, verve, or many other adjectives, and you equal an extremely apathetic to bordering on angry fan base who doesn't want to blow money on this "entertainment".
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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by JMP on Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:37 am

DolFan 316 wrote:I have a few issues with PFR's Approximate Value system, but generally find it to match the eye test. Here's their list of best players in Fins history by that criteria.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/career-av.htm

Cool list!

Interesting to see Nick Buoniconti all the way down at 30 (thought he would have been top 20...), and somehow Vernon Carey in the top 50 at 45!

Love seeing Richmond Webb, Sam Madison and Tim Bowens in the top 20...three of my favorite players, and all very underrated IMHO.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:56 pm

JMP wrote:Interesting to see Nick Buoniconti all the way down at 30 (thought he would have been top 20...), and somehow Vernon Carey in the top 50 at 45!

You've got to remember, Buoniconti only was a Fin for 7 seasons, after 7 with the Pats which would've been borderline HOF worthy in and of themselves. And his final season in '76 was basically a waste (3 games played) so really it's just 6. With AV it's not just how good a player was in any given season, it's how long he was good.

And to come full circle back around to the initial subject (kinda sorta) Wake is the highest modern day player at 36. Tannehill is all the way down at 82 right now. That pretty much says it all about the "star power" of this team Crying or Very sad

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by mercury22nathan on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:10 am

and that is my problem with this list, it is far too reliant on number of games played. its sort of the long smouldering fire versus the brightly burning star argument.

but any list that has Csonka as the 18th best Dolphins and Jake Scott (21), the Phins all-time leader in interception - done in a era when teams didn't pass as much - behind Tim Ruddy (20) is garbage in my mind. just saying.


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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by mercury22nathan on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:25 am

and another thing.  JT is not the 4th greatest Dolphin ever.  top 10, yes - number 4, no.

did you know that JT isn't even the sacks per game leader as a Phin?  that crown belongs to none other than Joey Porter.  even Cam Wake has a higher sacks per game ratio than JT - who is tied for third on the list with Adewale Ogunleye.  granted, JT is far and away the total sacks leader as a Phins, but that is because he played so many seasons with Miami - and got the bulk of his sacks very early in the game (being easily overcome as the game progressed) or very late in the game (when the outcome had been long decided).  A precious few, on a relative scale, of JT's sacks came at a time when it really mattered or had an effect on the game.  and this isn't even taking into account his extremely low tackles per game ratio (he's behind almost every semi-productive LB and other DEs like Jeff Cross, Marco Coleman and Vonnie Holiday) and liability versus the run.  JT was a good - no, a GREAT, almost HOF-worthy player, but he is not on the Phins' Mt. Rushmore.  again, just saying.

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by Degarmo on Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:18 pm

Dolphins' Rushmore is a tough one. I guess I'd go with Shula, Csonka, Marino and the entire 72-74 defense. Very Happy
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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:30 pm

Degarmo wrote:Dolphins' Rushmore is a tough one.  I guess I'd go with Shula, Csonka, Marino and the entire 72-74 defense.  Very Happy

I wouldn't include '74. '71 and maybe '70 yes, but not that season. That was the year after Arnsparger left, and Fins players openly told the new DC Vince Costello in practice he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

BTW Merc, did JT screw your woman or something? I know he liked to have his fun even after getting married. You forgot to mention he holds the record for most fumble recovery scores in a career. JT made plays, and that's more than you can say about pretty much every defensive player since he retired, or even during his last few seasons. How can you call someone a great and almost HOF worthy player but say he isn't worthy of holding the all-time best Fins' jocks? scratch And since when does anybody talk about sacks per game?

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Re: ranked last? OUCH

Post by DolFan 316 on Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:39 pm

mercury22nathan wrote:and that is my problem with this list, it is far too reliant on number of games played.  its sort of the long smouldering fire versus the brightly burning star argument.

See, I'm a fan of being consistently good over time. It's why I'm against Terrell Davis and even Kurt Warner getting into the HOF. Lots of guys can have 2-3 great seasons, but should that be considered better than another player who was at least good over 10-15 years? But that's the mentality of modern society, I realize that.

but any list that has Csonka as the 18th best Dolphins and Jake Scott (21), the Phins all-time leader in interception - done in a era when teams didn't pass as much - behind Tim Ruddy (20) is garbage in my mind.  just saying.

I actually think Ruddy's AV for every season of his career aside from 2000 is 1-2 points too high, but are you really saying someone who starts for a team 6 seasons should have that much more value than another player who starts for 9? And it's not as if Scott was shortchanged in the AV department. The bottom line is, if he hadn't clashed with Shula and stayed in Miami for even one more season, let alone 3, this wouldn't even be an issue. I don't think anybody is crazy enough to argue that Tim Ruddy was a better player than Jake Scott. But he did start for the Fins 3 seasons longer. If anything, their AVs being about equal only proves Scott was better. If this and JT not having enough sacks per game for your liking is what's got you outraged, then you're having a really good life I'd say Cool

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