Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by white1 on Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:10 am

Back to the original topic, Landry talks have been quiet.

Apparently, he said something on Twitter over the weekend -
"DIFFERENT". Maybe a reference to the fact he's not a prototypical number 1 receiver? In response, the Ravens safeties replied to the effect that they want him in Baltimore. (link) http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/12/ravens-safeties-reach-out-to-jarvis-landry-on-twitter/


I feel like we are going to lose him in Free Agency, and that's a mistake for us. Now, I'm not going to say the loss (or addition for that matter) of one player is going to make or break our offense. But those are big shoes to fill, both from a production and leadership/toughness standpoint. Plus you're losing a guy with probably the best chemistry with Tannehill.

If we are going to lose Landry, I'd recommend a wholesale makeover on offense. Draft Baker Mayfield, Mason Rudolph or Lamar Jackson and rebuild the offense around them.

However, with a terrible defense (and I have seen nothing to give any confidence this regime knows how to fix it), and entering a critical Year 3, I'm thinking we will try and continue to build around Tannehill.

This might not end well...



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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:10 am

white1 wrote:

I feel like we are going to lose him in Free Agency, and that's a mistake for us.  Now, I'm not going to say the loss (or addition for that matter) of one player is going to make or break our offense.  But those are big shoes to fill, both from a production and leadership/toughness standpoint. Plus you're losing a guy with probably the best chemistry with Tannehill.

If we are going to lose Landry, I'd recommend a wholesale makeover on offense.  Draft Baker Mayfield, Mason Rudolph or Lamar Jackson and rebuild the offense around them.

However, with a terrible defense (and I have seen nothing to give any confidence this regime knows how to fix it), and entering a critical Year 3, I'm thinking we will try and continue to build around Tannehill.

This might not end well...


Good post, white, and I agree.

For better or worse, the Dolphins chose to build the offense around a slot receiver. If Landry does walk, they will have to completely revamp the entire offense. It's not as simple as saying "Oh, Landry's 160 targets will just get distributed more evenly." Really??? How?

And yes, we have a 30-year old QB coming off a major knee injury - and we're taking away the player who is BY FAR his favorite and most reliable target. Seems like a bad idea to me. Landry may be a slot receiver, but there's not another slot in the NFL that has his size and ability. He's a rare player, and simply labeling him a "slot" doesn't tell the full story. I see people elsewhere online saying we can replace him with Grant, or even someone like Braxton Berrios. Honestly, it's an absolute joke to think that a smurf receiver can step in and do what Landry does. It's just not happening. (For the record, as a UM fan, I LOVE Berrios...but since we already have Grant, it would be foolish to add another smurf.)

Anyway, you're right - getting rid of Landry means reshaping the offense - and it's a perfect time to draft a starting-caliber QB. But, that's not happening. The Dolphins think they are close to winning a Super Bowl, so they're going to stick with Tannehill and tweak the rest of the roster. I'm telling you know - anyone expecting big changes to this roster (other than losing Landry) is going to be disappointed.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by finfanatic on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:59 pm

I think Armando nailed it.

No direction. No overall comprehensive strategy for winning a SB. The free agency thing has gotten to the point where NOTHING surprises me anymore. As DF316 has said before...."The Phins front office must be Jets fans." Or maybe Eagles fans more likely!! Very Happy

Some of the moves are astoundingly stupid for people who are supposed to know what they are doing.

The same thing applies in the draft areas IMHO. Who they draft and where they draft them NEVER seems to exactly line up with what I would consider maximum draft value. Plus, the whole lack of an overall strategy in the draft.

As we all know: This team has problems, troubles, cares, and concerns...to numerous to mention. The main problem seems to be NOBODY in Charge KNOWS the team has these problems!

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by Umix10 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:09 pm

Miami is too strapped with the cap to make any kind of decent offer to Landry.  This has been coming for a 3 years.  Not knowing what to do or what the number is, is a gross mismanagement by the front office.  I don't think this is something that just happened. I truly believe that this is years of negligence in building the RIGHT way.  Not overpaying non-factor players. Mismanagement of the Cap put the Dolphins in this very situation.  If Landry is in fact not part of their plans then they should sign him anyway and look to trade him.  Package him and our current 1st rounder to move up in the draft and really make a difference in the draft this year. If we can get the cap situation under control we will certainly see a difference
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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:29 pm

Umix10 wrote:Miami is too strapped with the cap to make any kind of decent offer to Landry.  This has been coming for a 3 years.  Not knowing what to do or what the number is, is a gross mismanagement by the front office.  I don't think this is something that just happened. I truly believe that this is years of negligence in building the RIGHT way.  Not overpaying non-factor players. Mismanagement of the Cap put the Dolphins in this very situation.  If Landry is in fact not part of their plans then they should sign him anyway and look to trade him.  Package him and our current 1st rounder to move up in the draft and really make a difference in the draft this year. If we can get the cap situation under control we will certainly see a difference

I absolutely agree with the part I bolded above. "Gross mismanagement" is the key term. Unfortunately we are at least a year away from straightening out the cap situation - and that's only if Tannenbaum stops handing out garbage contracts, which is unlikely.

As for trading Landry, I think if that was the plan they would have traded him during the season. I think it's far more likely that the Phins make a half-hearted attempt to sign him and then just let him walk and hope to get a compensation pick (which they seem to LOVE) in 2019. I don't think they will use the franchise tag.


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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by Umix10 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:30 pm

JMP wrote:Unfortunately we are at least a year away from straightening out the cap situation......

At the very least..........

To say the least. LMAO
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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 pm

Umix10 wrote:
JMP wrote:Unfortunately we are at least a year away from straightening out the cap situation......

At the very least..........

To say the least. LMAO

That damn Suh contract is like an albatross around the team's neck, and it just gets heavier by the year. There are rumors that the Phins may try to restucture that contract again, which will only prolong the damage. They just don't know what they're doing...better to leave it alone and get out of it in 2020.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:16 am

I never thought I'd miss the days of Dawn Aponte, but Tannenbaum pulled it off.

Remember back in the day when Ross was going out of his way to assure fans that Tannenbaum would NOT be a part of the actual football operations? That he was just there as some sort of business consultant, or something?

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by white1 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:59 am

Suh, IMO is the least of our worries.

First of all, with the increasing cap every year, his contract gets cheaper as time goes by.  Defensive linemen are getting similar deals from other teams. Plus, he actually performs at an elite level. We have all discussed if it's wise to pay a DT that kind of money, but again, at least we are getting elite performance from this highly paid player.

The problem, as many have said before, are the contracts handed out to underwhelming players.

We don't have a lot of money for Landry because we WASTED IT on players that are not pulling their weight.  One, Kiko Alonso.  And we pulled the trigger on his deal a year TOO SOON.  Two, TJ McDonald.  Why we needed another highly-paid safety in the exact same mold as Reshad Jones is beyond me.  Three, Branch.  WTF did he EVER do to earn that deal? He could literally disappear and we wouldn't notice.  Go with Harris and Malveaux on that side for all I care.

So there's three players right there, if you dedicated their cap space to the Landry deal, you could sign him without issue.  And he is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to the team than all of those players COMBINED. But no, instead of thinking about Landry we prioritized these guys instead. It makes no sense. Now, we're screwed. Great job team!

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:28 am

white1 wrote:Suh, IMO is the least of our worries.

First of all, with the increasing cap every year, his contract gets cheaper as time goes by.  Defensive linemen are getting similar deals from other teams.  Plus, he actually performs at an elite level.  We have all discussed if it's wise to pay a DT that kind of money, but again, at least we are getting elite performance from this highly paid player.

The problem, as many have said before, are the contracts handed out to underwhelming players.

We don't have a lot of money for Landry because we WASTED IT on players that are not pulling their weight.  One, Kiko Alonso.  And we pulled the trigger on his deal a year TOO SOON.  Two, TJ McDonald.  Why we needed another highly-paid safety in the exact same mold as Reshad Jones is beyond me.  Three, Branch.  WTF did he EVER do to earn that deal? He could literally disappear and we wouldn't notice.  Go with Harris and Malveaux on that side for all I care.

So there's three players right there, if you dedicated their cap space to the Landry deal, you could sign him without issue.  And he is FAR MORE IMPORTANT to the team than all of those players COMBINED.  But no, instead of thinking about Landry we prioritized these guys instead.  It makes no sense.  Now, we're screwed.  Great job team!

I disagree about Suh, but everything else you said is right on. Keep throwing boatloads of money at undeserving players, and let your best players walk. Rinse and repeat.

Suh was an elite player for the Lions...I'm not convinced he's been elite for the Dolphins - especially this past season. He was a true impact player in Detroit, but here he's mostly a guy that occupies blockers and rarely makes an impact play. That may be more scheme-driven than anything else, but it is what it is. Maybe the new DL coach, who worked with him in Detroit, will help. Regardless, Suh is no longer the best DT in football - maybe not even top 10 IMO - and his cap hit is over $26 million in 2018 and over $28 million in 2019. Yes, the cap goes up every year...but those numbers are staggering. Consider: Aaron Rodgers has a cap hit of $20.5 million in 2018 and $21.1 million in 2019. Or this: Jimmy Garoppolo just signed the biggest contract ever, and after 2018 his cap hit never goes above $27 million. Hell, Tom Brady's cap hit is $22 million the next two seasons. Yep, we're paying a DT at the same level (or higher) as elite QBs. That tells you everything you need to know.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 am

It's not even as if teams need an elite DT to be good in today's league. If anything most of the teams who have one actually suck, because a great DT does no good when the opposing offenses can just throw the ball over their heads. The Giants threw money at Damon Harrison and where are they now? The Bengals have Geno Atkins and haven't even won a playoff game (and now can;t even make the playoffs period). The Rams sucked with Aaron Donald for 3 years before finally getting a coach whose football philosophy isn't straight out of the 70s. Gerald McCoy hasn't stopped the Bucs from being awful. The Jets have Wilkerson *and* Leonard Williams, and they suck too when they're not facing the Fins. And pretty much all the players I just named are arguably better than Suh.

Not to mention Suh costs more than even the good DTs on playoff teams (Linval Joseph, Kawann Short, Cameron Heyward, Fletcher Cox, etc.) which makes it even more absurd.

https://overthecap.com/position/interior-defensive-line

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:14 am

Great post, 316...really puts things in perspective. And just think...the Jets once had Mo Wilkerson, Leonard Williams AND Sheldon Richardson (who is also as good as or better than Suh) and they STILL sucked.

The Dolphins have made a habit of paying big money to the wrong guys, and that's been true for years - regardless of the people running the team. Again, it's all about properly evaluating talent and value - and the Phins have no understanding of either one.



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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by mercury22nathan on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:19 am


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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by JMP on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 am

mercury22nathan wrote:a nice read analyzing Landry's value...

http://www.dolphinstalk.com/2018/02/is-jarvis-landry-number-1-wide-receiver.html

Interesting positives and negatives.

As far as the low yards per catch - that is 100% due to how the Dolphins use him.  It's mind-boggling that they prefer to use him within +/- 5 yards of the line of scrimmage.  For a guy that runs good routes and gets YAC, it's a complete waste of talent.


Last edited by JMP on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by finfanatic on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:18 pm

As I've said, some of the free agent deals have been astoundingly dumb IMO. That McDonald deal still gives me a "queasy" feeling.

What kind of nitwit....

Anyway...Same ol' Phins.

They have been over-paying to get the wrong players for years, and acting like the world would end of they overpaid to keep one of their own.

It almost seems as if it is deliberate sabotage?

But then again...it's probably just plain ol'stupidity.


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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by Degarmo on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:36 am

This will be the year we throw a busload of money at Nick Mangold.
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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by finfanatic on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:49 am

I heard Ross Tucker on the radio this morn saying maybe Miami thinks Jakim Grant and that Rutgers receiver (Leonte Caroo) can fill Landry's spot?

I like Grant, but he is one wicked hit away from being concussed out of football IMO.

Caroo - Seems okay. I would not have traded UP to get him, but...I have seen absolutely NOTHING from him indicating he can fill Landry's shoes.

Again...perhaps another puzzling free agent move by the Phins. And when it comes with them making another asinine move and WAY OVERPAYING for some dubious free agent like we know they will at some point this off season....

Same ol Phins.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by HalCHorn on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am

The Fins' brain trust thinks that Landry can easily be replaced by the next man up, but that McDonald and Alonso were just way too valuable not to overpay to keep.

Tells you everything you need to know about the talent evaluation here.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by rightchea on Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:30 pm

Miami scout's and front office have no clue on what is going on. The draft is loaded with trash and not worth trading up for.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by Umix10 on Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:58 pm

Landry is a product of a bad situation. The guy has amazing hands and is certainly a danger for YAC. He is quicker than fast but won’t outrun anyone without blockers. The most important attribute he possesses is that the QB doesn’t have to be accurate. For years, Tannehill got bailed out by Landry’s knack for catching the ball. Landry will battle for the ball, no doubt. But, IMHO, if the offense becomes more balanced, I don’t see Landry being this productive. No more dink and dunks, no more clear outs. If the dolphins succeed in getting better at the TE position, solidify the OL, and develop the other WR’s(i.e, Grant and Parker), Landry’s production will decrease significantly. I don’t think he fits in an offense that uses an actual running game as opposed to Miami who uses the passing game to run.
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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 am

Well it's all moot now that Landry got franchised, which was something nobody seemed to even think was a possibility yet should've been done all along.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by white1 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:55 am

It's interesting that Miami moved so quickly to tag Landry. PFT reports the interpretation league wide is Miami is open to trade talks.

I'm of the opinion it's more likely than not that Miami finds a trade partner. Probably for a 2nd round pick, or a player at a position of need.

I don't think this is the right way to go, because as I've said earlier in this thread, it's a mistake to think replacing Landry is a feasible solution to the problem. In the end, we are going to lose him and anything we get in return will probably not meet the value we are giving up.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing him play for us this year under the tag. Because free agency looks to be loaded with crap, so I'm not exactly sweating the $16 million cap hit. Plus it could prevent the front office from throwing stupid money at some loser on the market.

The one position we could really use money to sign is Tight End, and if we've got $14 million in cap space after accounting for the Landry deal (I've seen this projection based on predicted released players), that should not present a problem.

However, that too looks to be unlikely. More probable is we see Miami actually rescind the tag and let him test free agency.

In summary, I'm not so encouraged, discouraged, excited or disappointed by the decision to tag Landry. To me, it looks like a somewhat desperate move to get some value in return, instead of letting him walk for nothing but a compensatory pick. The team doesn't appear serious about keeping him long term, and I think that's a mistake. But one we saw coming.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by mercury22nathan on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:11 am

My understanding is that this is a strategic move by the Phins. The non-exclusive franchise tag buys both parties more time to negotiate a long-term deal and can potentially help those negotiations by establishing a market value on Landry. Both sides have established their positions.

Miami’s most recent offer to Landry is believed to be in the range of $13 million annually, according to a team source.

Landry is said to be seeking a deal similar to the four-year, $58 million contract signed by Green Bay’s DeVante Adams.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article201220184.html

So the Phins are at $13M per year and the Landry wants $14.5M – the sides are not as far apart as the media has claimed. The tag allows Landry to seek offers from other teams and see if he can get a deal that beats the $13M the Phins are offering. Of course no team would be willing to part with the two 1st rounders required by the tag, but if a deal beyond what the Phins are willing to offer can be worked out, the Phins could agree to trade Landry for something less. Or the Phins can up their offer to match and keep Landry long term. And if Landry can’t find a team willing to pay more than the Phins, then maybe he’ll feel more content to accept their offer. The big key is that the Phins can rescind the tag and have Landry either sign a long term deal or workout a trade offer.

If no teams are willing to pay Landry’s asking price, he could just accept the tag and play one year at $16M and be right back in the same boat next year knowing that no teams are willing to pay him what he’s asking. So the motivator for Landry (the Phins hope) is that $52M ($13M for 4 years) with some guaranteed portion plus signing bonus (Adams got an $18M bonus plus a $30M guaranteed portion) beats one year of $16M.

Its all part of the process.

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by white1 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:46 am

If no teams are willing to pay Landry’s asking price, he could just accept the tag and play one year at $16M and be right back in the same boat next year knowing that no teams are willing to pay him what he’s asking. So the motivator for Landry (the Phins hope) is that $52M ($13M for 4 years) with some guaranteed portion plus signing bonus (Adams got an $18M bonus plus a $30M guaranteed portion) beats one year of $16M.

Its all part of the process.

That's a good point, Merc.

Could serve the team in two ways.

One, a team that wants to "bid" on Landry must also be willing to sacrifice draft picks (or a player, a more unlikely scenario). This should suppress the market vs what it would otherwise be were he a free agent with no strings attached.

Two, the man behind the curtain has been exposed when it comes to contract reports. Everyone knows that only the guaranteed portion of the contract is real money - all else is fluff, especially future years. Anything north of $40 million in guaranteed money is a strong incentive, vs $16 million paid out a week at a time.

Plus, the weekly salary gambles on a bet with poor odds. Too many players suffer season ending injuries every year. This only adds to the attraction of a guaranteed-now payoff.

If what you're saying is true (not blaming you, but hard to trust any sources in a contract negotiation) then the sides really aren't that far apart. Maybe a deal DOES get done?

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Re: Landry traded to Browns for 4th in '18 + 7th in '19

Post by Umix10 on Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:18 pm

When they change uniforms I hope they look for a new mascot like the Bumble Bees or the Bozos or the Clows or something that reflects the true identity of this whole fcking shit show.  

Incidentally, you can’t call something a strategic move when all the moves up to this point were wrong because IMHO you still moving in the wrong direction. It just takes you longer to get there.

And here I thought the dolphins would only irritate me only during the season.  Maybe and just MAYBE the dolphins are hoping that Doug Pedersen breaks out the stupid stick for SUH and then we give Landry his money. Maybe?


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