Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

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Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:25 am

It's incredibly hard for me to believe, but according to Armando they're highly respected around the league and stuff. Then again, look who's doing the endorsing.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2016/04/miami-dolphins-scouting-department-gets-a-big-endorsement.html

If this is true, that only makes things worse IMO because it would mean no matter who the coach and GM is, they're disregarding everything the scouts say. Even by this team's standards that would make absolutely no sense scratch

BTW it sure is odd how most of the individuals specifically mentioned here have been working for the Fins about as long as the bad drafts have been happening. Just sayin'.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by mercury22nathan on Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:51 am

and the problem with the whole premise of that blog post...

Parcells listed a list of guys he really respects.

these were guys that Parcells himself either hired or retained, so of course he is going to vouch for them. considering how bad the talent acquisition has been, either Parcells is lying to protect their reputations or he too was one of the idiots that ignored all their insightful scouting information.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by Birdmond on Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:14 am

I believe this. I've heard that scouts are over ruled so many times league wide they often wonder why they are even employed. Keep in mind the decision to draft Dion Jordan was made at a dinner party with Ross, Ireland, Apponte and Dilbert.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by JMP on Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:15 am

Yeah, it's really hard for me to believe that our scouts are great with all the crap drafting we've had for what seems like forever.  Sounds to me like the "old boys' network" is at work here...these guys have been around forever and they are part of the scouting community, so everyone loves them even if they suck at their jobs.

And an endorsement from Parcells?  That's a death sentence, as far as I'm concerned, and tells me all I need to know about these scouts.

It is mind-boggling that these guys have kept their jobs for so long.  With the draft record the Phins have, combined with all the coaching changes, most of these guys should have been kicked to the curb years ago.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by finskev on Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:43 pm

Talking about the Draft there is a Good Article of Drafting Players in SI, It Talks about how hard the Draft has become because College Football is so much different than Pro Football Today than it was 20 Years ago. It talks about Qb never being under center in some systems and Tackles who Never play in a 3 Point stance there whole career and now are having to learn basic stuff in the Pro's and the Nfl trying to figure out if they can make the transition. I will see if I can find it and put it on here, I found it to be an interesting read.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:07 pm

I couldn't agree more with Jmp. This team has changed coaches, GMs, hundreds of players, and even owners over the last 20 years and yet the bad drafts are the one thing that's always the same. You'd think that if your job depended on listening to the well-respected scouts, that somebody would listen to them. What's easier to believe, that coaches with diametrically opposite personalities (JJ to Wanny to Saban to Cameron to Sparano to Philbin) would ALL not listen or that the one thing that's stayed the same is bringing this team down? Saban took the team medical staff at their word but completely disregarded the scouts? Seriously? Hell, it doesn't even seem as if Parcells himself listened to these guys if his raving about them years after the fact is true!

Then again this all might just be part of the Burial Ground Curse. Or somebody from the scouting department reaching out to Armando basically saying not to blame them for the horrible draft that's about to follow.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by JMP on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:10 pm

finskev wrote:Talking about the Draft there is a Good Article of Drafting Players in SI, It Talks about how hard the Draft has become because College Football is so much different than Pro Football Today than it was 20 Years ago. It talks about Qb never being under center in some systems and Tackles who Never play in a 3 Point stance there whole career and now are having to learn basic stuff in the Pro's and the Nfl trying to figure out if they can make the transition. I will see if I can find it and put it on here, I found it to be an interesting read.  

I haven't seen the article, but yeah, it's an excellent point.  College offenses are completely different than the NFL now, and it makes it really difficult to predict how these guys will doi at the next level.  It's almost like two different sports.   I think QB, OL and TE are the offensive positions that are the most difficult to judge nowadays.  On defense, DL, LB and S are probably the toughest IMO.  Definitely makes things tricky for NFL evaluators.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by JMP on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:12 pm

DolFan 316 wrote:I couldn't agree more with Jmp. This team has changed coaches, GMs, hundreds of players, and even owners over the last 20 years and yet the bad drafts are the one thing that's always the same. You'd think that if your job depended on listening to the well-respected scouts, that somebody would listen to them. What's easier to believe, that coaches with diametrically opposite personalities (JJ to Wanny to Saban to Cameron to Sparano to Philbin) would ALL not listen or that the one thing that's stayed the same is bringing this team down? Saban took the team medical staff at their word but completely disregarded the scouts? Seriously? Hell, it doesn't even seem as if Parcells himself listened to these guys if his raving about them years after the fact is true!

Then again this all might just be part of the Burial Ground Curse. Or somebody from the scouting department reaching out to Armando basically saying not to blame them for the horrible draft that's about to follow.

That's a great point - if these scouts are so great at their jobs, why haven't ANY of the Dolphins coaches and GMs listened to them???  Just doesn't make sense.  Much more realistic for me to believe that the coaches, GMs AND scouts have ALL been incompetent ass-hats, because that's what the results point to.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:15 pm

Jmp, if anything I think it's been the other way around, with the scouts not heeding what the various coaches and GMs wanted because at some point they figured the guy's going to be fired in a couple of years anyway so why bother.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by JMP on Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:59 pm

Yeah, that's true.  It's just one big clusterfuck anyway you look at it.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by finfanatic on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:28 pm

Well, awhile back, a couple of times the Phins draft room consensus was a player DIFFERENT than the one the HC/Personnel Guy ultimately decided to pick.

Reggie Wayne was the consensus, but Dumbstedt had a stiffie for Jamar Fletcher!

Even turned down a trade offer from SD to take Fletcher, when he could have gotten the marginal CB most likely AND the picks from SD!!!

And lest we forget, the 2003 2nd round pick used on 6th round talent LB Eddie Moore, when the consensus was WR Anquan Boldin! Dumbstedt! JJ's tenure as HC of the Phins is a serious blackeye if for no other reason than he brought the incredible dumbarse to the Phins and got him the HCing job!!! Curse them both!!!

I do not know if the Scouts are to blame or not, but I do know it is almost impossible to NOT LUCK into somebody who turns out to be good in the lower rounds. The number of picks the Phins have had and the number that turn out to be absolute stinkers beggars the laws of probability IMHO.

I mean, the draft is a crapshoot at best, but the odds are 50/50!! How in Hades infernal fire does a team screw up 50/50 so often?

A LOT of it is the coaching I think. The Phins coaches ain't t'zactly the sharpest knives in the drawer! Think Philbin and Sparano, both good position coaches who know football, but neither has a clue on how to be a HC IMO. Philbin was a leaderless empty shirt, and Sparano was a micromanaging nitwit.

Also, since the HC is ALWAYS on the hot seat for the team's scurvy play, they do not give a flaming fig about player development, so that young guy who NEEDS the most coaching and some extra reps in practice, gets pushed back in favor of trying to win a couple more games in order to KEEP YOUR JOB!

If the Phins could FIND a HC with actual...you know...HCing ability....I say sign him long term and tell him to put more emphasis on player development.

I mean, you have a 50/50 shot the player MIGHT develop, but not if the team keeps rebuilding every three or four years. Not if they are continually changing offenses, defenses, the schemes, the coordinators, etc....

The under-developed players are already behind the curve to start with, and then have to start over with a new staff, who are not interested in seeing the last staff's players make the team.

It is a vicious cycle and SOMETHING needs to be done to break it. What? The ONLY thing would be to get a viable HC and let him infuse some HOPE into the team. Someone who CLEARLY knows what he is doing and could prove to Ross the best thing would be to back this HC to fullest and stop letting these out of work former NFL GM tinker with the team.

The Pats keep picking behind the Phins, the Bills, and the Jets, and they keep winning. Not because their drafting is extraordinary, but because they know how to COACH the players they do get, and the players they do draft or acquire, FIT their schemes. And if they don't measure up, the HC and staff are confident enough to kick the dimwit player to the curb (Easley) without worrying about how it looks to the media.

I do not have much hope things are going to get (much) better, but the chances of absolute utter EPIC FAIL (Cam-Mueller) is very remote IMO.

So at least the Phins have that going for them.

Very Happy



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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by Degarmo on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:34 pm

I guess the other way to look at it is that we did draft some developmental players, but haven't had a decent group of coaches that could develop any talent at all. By the time most of them left here, they were so saddled with bad habits and poor coaching, they had very little chance.

Just a thought.
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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:35 pm

Okay, I can admit FF makes a good point. As he usually does.

And yes, I still remember FF wanting Wayne in the '01 draft.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by HalCHorn on Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:10 pm

At least one scout was literally pounding the table endorsing Brees, and Reggie Wayne had multiple backers in the room when Wannstedt overruled them and went with Fletcher.

Two years later, Wannstedt overruled scouts who endorsed Boldin when he chose Eddie Moore. Jason Coles reported that Wanny took Moore at that time because he felt that Butch Davis was about to take him!

Drafting for need has played a part, as Wilfork and Steven Jackson were both ranked ahead of Vernon Carey the following year on the board, but...thanks to the neglect of the O-line in recent years, we needed a LT.

Then after Ricky's retirement, well, we needed a RB.

Saban personally selected Jason Allen, since he missed out on him at LSU. Ironically, several LSU players in that 2006 draft went on to excel, and Saban didn't draft a one.

Cameron locked onto Ginn.

Parcells was reportedly responsible for the Pat White pick.

And so on. Scouts may be part of the problem, but the person with final say has been the biggest part of the problem over the years IMO.

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by Birdmond on Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:42 pm

HalCHorn wrote:At least one scout was literally pounding the table endorsing Brees, and Reggie Wayne had multiple backers in the room when Wannstedt overruled them and went with Fletcher.

Two years later, Wannstedt overruled scouts who endorsed Boldin when he chose Eddie Moore. Jason Coles reported that Wanny took Moore at that time because he felt that Butch Davis was about to take him!

Drafting for need has played a part, as Wilfork and Steven Jackson were both ranked ahead of Vernon Carey the following year on the board, but...thanks to the neglect of the O-line in recent years, we needed a LT.

Then after Ricky's retirement, well, we needed a RB.

Saban personally selected Jason Allen, since he missed out on him at LSU. Ironically, several LSU players in that 2006 draft went on to excel, and Saban didn't draft a one.

Cameron locked onto Ginn.

Parcells was reportedly responsible for the Pat White pick.

And so on. Scouts may be part of the problem, but the person with final say has been the biggest part of the problem over the years IMO.

Winner! I've been saying this for years!

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Re: Fins' Scouts NOT The Problem???

Post by rightchea on Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:25 pm

That a lot of the issue as well when it comes to coaches. They are so scared about what the other teams are doing that they forget about their own team. Tannenbaum and Gase better not mess this up.

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