Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by white1 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:36 am

Whoever is Ross' football guy needs to go.

IMO it's Tannenbaum. He was hanging around the team in an advisory role before he got the job. Certainly he must have had Ross ear the whole time.

Marino seems to be dipping his toe in, but I'm not sure he's got the juice to be a front office executive running the whole football operation. Elways trajectory gives me pause on this approach also. Apparently, he's building a fine reputation as a "coach killer" - in other words way too quick to fire both coordinators and head coaches after a bad year. There's a lesson in that too. It does take some time to build a squad, and if you fire too quickly, well who the hell is going to want to work for you? People with no other options, that's who. Not exactly the best of the best.

When the time comes, best approach is fire Tannenbaum, Gase and Grier - then hire the next VP of football operations. The GM and head coach will report to him. I like the structure, but right now it looks like the people aren't right.

The whole mess where the HC and GM reported to Ross directly was a disaster. The years where we fired either the GM or the head coach were disasters. This time let's get it right.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by JMP on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:07 am

white1 wrote:

Marino seems to be dipping his toe in, but I'm not sure he's got the juice to be a front office executive running the whole football operation.  Elways trajectory gives me pause on this approach also.  Apparently, he's building a fine reputation as a "coach killer" - in other words way too quick to fire both coordinators and head coaches after a bad year.  There's a lesson in that too.  It does take some time to build a squad, and if you fire too quickly, well who the hell is going to want to work for you? People with no other options, that's who.  Not exactly the best of the best.  

When the time comes, best approach is fire Tannenbaum, Gase and Grier - then hire the next VP of football operations.  The GM and head coach will report to him.  I like the structure, but right now it looks like the people aren't right.  

I have no problem with what Elway is doing. When you realize that you hired the wrong guy, the best approach is to get rid of him ASAP. Vance Joseph was a terrible hire, and I don't know how anyone could think otherwise the second it was announced. For whatever reason, Elway thought he was "the guy". Now it's become apparent that Joseph is in over his head, and I think it's perfectly fair for Elway to put pressure on him. After all, that's when you find out what a guy is truly made of. Elway will do his final evaluation at season's end and figure out whether or not he wants Joseph back, and that's what should be done by every team every year. You can't worry about firing a guy too quickly...usually, you can tell right away if a coach has "it"...just as you can with a lot of players. I give props to Elway for not just accepting garbage.

But yes - when the time comes, the Phins need to fire EVERYBODY - no more half measures.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by mercury22nathan on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:11 am

Mando's article gives Gase a pass and lays the blame on Burke and the fact that our o-line coach was doing coke.

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article186811943.html

Many of you have written to me asking me to rip head coach Adam Gase. Obviously, I have not done that to any degree. The reason for that is I don’t judge a head coach by 11 games. I don’t think a team should turn its back on someone in his second year after he took the team to the playoffs his first year.

...to suggest he’s totally at fault for the 4-7 record the Dolphins are suffering is unfair.

Gase gives Burke relative freedom over the unit to manage as he sees fit.

And it’s not looking too well-managed right now.

My problem is that I see things happen over and over that do not get corrected.

...the offensive line coaching this year got a little sideways when Chris Foerster got fired/resigned for snorting cocaine while on the job in the Dolphins facility.

And there is no doubt Gase will be looking for a new offensive line coach this offseason.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by white1 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:13 am

I don't necessarily disagree with Joseph getting the hook, it's all the other OCs/DCs that got the hook too. One time or two, yeah go ahead and fire the guy - but if it's too much of a pattern you are running the risk of chasing off future top candidates.


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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by white1 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:18 am

Mando's article gives Gase a pass and lays the blame on Burke and the fact that our o-line coach was doing coke.

Pass or not, Gase is going to be faced with some very tough decisions following this season.

If Burke's unit is not doing well, does Gase fire him? And if so, is the next DC going to be any better? Both Joseph and Burke bombed in that role IMO - Joseph probably gets more of a pass because injuries decimated his unit while Burke has coached a relatively injury-free, but awful defense.

With the offensive line we need more than just a coach. There is a decision looming on several players too. Is Pouncey really a viable long term option at center? This season argues that no, he is not. James looks as good as gone, I guess you can hand the RT job to Jesse Davis and probably experience little if any dropoff. What do we do at right guard? Certainly not Bushrod again.

Returning starters are likely Tunsil and Larsen, not necessarily because they are great, but because you could be looking at 3 needs already on the line, and Tunsil still has upside.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:48 am

JMP wrote:I have no problem with what Elway is doing.  When you realize that you hired the wrong guy, the best approach is to get rid of him ASAP.  Vance Joseph was a terrible hire, and I don't know how anyone could think otherwise the second it was announced.  For whatever reason, Elway thought he was "the guy".  Now it's become apparent that Joseph is in over his head, and I think it's perfectly fair for Elway to put pressure on him.  After all, that's when you find out what a guy is truly made of.  Elway will do his final evaluation at season's end and figure out whether or not he wants Joseph back, and that's what should be done by every team every year.  You can't worry about firing a guy too quickly...usually, you can tell right away if a coach has "it"...just as you can with a lot of players.  I give props to Elway for not just accepting garbage.  

But yes - when the time comes, the Phins need to fire EVERYBODY - no more half measures.

The truth is out now about Elway (who looked DAMN old in that pic, scary really). He's a great GM, except for not being able to evaluate coaches and QBs at all. Which is pretty much the most important part about being a GM. Basically he lucked out with signing Peyton.

BTW, remember in '07 when the local sports media was actually calling for Cam to be retained after the season and saying it would be a dumb move to fire him because "continuity"?

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by JMP on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:18 am

white1 wrote:
Mando's article gives Gase a pass and lays the blame on Burke and the fact that our o-line coach was doing coke.

Pass or not, Gase is going to be faced with some very tough decisions following this season.

If Burke's unit is not doing well, does Gase fire him? And if so, is the next DC going to be any better? Both Joseph and Burke bombed in that role IMO - Joseph probably gets more of a pass because injuries decimated his unit while Burke has coached a relatively injury-free, but awful defense.

With the offensive line we need more than just a coach.  There is a decision looming on several players too.  Is Pouncey really a viable long term option at center? This season argues that no, he is not.  James looks as good as gone, I guess you can hand the RT job to Jesse Davis and probably experience little if any dropoff.  What do we do at right guard? Certainly not Bushrod again.

Returning starters are likely Tunsil and Larsen, not necessarily because they are great, but because you could be looking at 3 needs already on the line, and Tunsil still has upside.

The defense is absolutely all Burke - because Gase completely ignores that side of the ball. Of course, anyone with half a brain should realize that a head coach that doesn't care about defense should have an experienced DC and not a learning-on-the-job rookie, but this is the Dolphins so yeah.

I don't expect Gase to fire anyone and I don't expect a huge roster turnover - because Gase lives in a world where the 2017 Miami Dolphins are great and the problems are minor and easily fixable. Pouncey will stay because Gase thinks he's awesome. Bushrod will be re-signed with a nice raise because Gase loves him. Thomas will be back because he works hard and Gase can't get enough of him. Hell, don't be surprised if Cutler is re-signed to compete with Tannehill.

I'm telling you, I can feel it in my gut - Gase is too stubborn and inflexible, and things are going to get much worse if he is retained.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by JMP on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:25 am

DolFan 316 wrote:
The truth is out now about Elway (who looked DAMN old in that pic, scary really). He's a great GM, except for not being able to evaluate coaches and QBs at all. Which is pretty much the most important part about being a GM. Basically he lucked out with signing Peyton.

BTW, remember in '07 when the local sports media was actually calling for Cam to be retained after the season and saying it would be a dumb move to fire him because "continuity"?

Agreed about Elway - he can't find a QB at all. But it is damn hard to find a good coach these days...for every Sean McVay there's at least a few Adam Gases. It's really, really difficult to find a legit candidate. I've been saying for a year or two that Frank Reich is going to be a great head coach one day, and with the work he's done in Philly I think his chance will come sooner rather than later. But for the Dolphins, I'd like to see someone with experience for a change. I haven't bothered looking because I really don't think Gase will get fired (even though I absolutely believe he should), so I don't know who's out there, but I'm tired of hiring inexperienced coaches that don't know what the hell they're doing.

And yeah, I remmeber all that talk in '07 about keeping Cam...that's when I learned to hate the word "continuity".

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by mercury22nathan on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:40 am

JMP wrote:...because Gase completely ignores that side of the ball.

and he's not even ashamed to admit it. when talking about Vance Joseph this week...

Gase said, “I knew last year I was going to have to hand it over to somebody that could take it and run with it, because I wasn’t going to have enough time, and he was somebody I trusted enough to do that.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article187189608.html

not have enough time?!?! dude, you're the head coach of the whole team - not just the offense (which sucks, by the way).

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by JMP on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 am

If you know you're not going to work with the defense, why do you keep hiring first-time defensive coordinators???

Gase just isn't a head coach - period.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by white1 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:45 pm

If you know you're not going to work with the defense, why do you keep hiring first-time defensive coordinators???

Gase just isn't a head coach - period.

You mentioned McVay earlier in the thread, and he did it exactly right. He hired Wade Phillips, who has tons of experience and literally every where he goes, the defense starts playing at a high level.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by mercury22nathan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:08 am

and to make matters worse, our O coordinator has not clue what the offense is doing...

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article187336438.html

Asked Thursday if the Dolphins have an offensive identity, Christensen (the Dolphins’ coordinator of that phase of the game) responded:

“Not yet. I feel like we’re still, same thing, where so many things, we’re back quarterback-wise. I feel like we’re fighting for one. I think we are fighting for one. ... We’ve kind of lost our identity. We kind of thrived on protecting the football and right now, we haven’t been doing that.”

or what his job is...

So what is Christensen’s role? It’s always been a little murky, at least publicly. On Thursday, he tried to clear it up:

“Just to be a support and just to tie it all together. ... Trying to tie run-pass-play action, some of those things together, and just keep everyone moving everyone in the same direction in a cheerleader manner.”

an f'ing CHEERLEADER, you're an f'ing CHEERLEADER?!?!

“I always tease that I’m the village idiot that just keeps giving the same message over and over and over again in the center of the town square,” Christensen added. “You just keep playing, you keep working and who knows? We’ll look up at the end and see what happened. Five-game losing streak — what now? So what? What now? Got the next game coming up. I would probably see myself, one of my roles, as just keep the message right out in front.”

village idiot sounds about right.  "what now?  so what?"  those are the questions he's asking to solve this offense's problems.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by mercury22nathan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:10 am

and more from the village idiot...

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article187317848.html

PFF says this is Mike Pouncey’s worst run blocking season ever, ranks him 33rd of 35 centers in run blocking.

But asked if Pouncey’s run blocking has regressed, Christensen said: “Probably the opposite. It’s been better. He’s been in there more. Which is the best news of them all – that he’s been in there and stayed healthy – especially how the quarterback thing has gone. At least you have stability right there.”

no wonder this team can't run the damn ball. they have no idea there even is a problem.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by white1 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:30 am

Well I hope Grier and Gase are evaluating Pouncey at a much different level than Christensen.

I don't expect Tannenbaum to know, he's not a scout.

If Grier and Gase think Pouncey is our answer at center, well the line they build is the line they will live and die with. Anchoring Pouncey at the center does not set them up for success.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by JMP on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:43 pm

Frightening stuff...there's major dysfunction and incompetence throughout this front offie and coaching staff. Too many people just don't know what the hell they're doing.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by HalCHorn on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:04 pm

JMP wrote:Frightening stuff...there's major dysfunction and incompetence throughout this front offie and coaching staff.  Too many people just don't know what the hell they're doing.

Two decades of that, basically. That includes the two years under Saban who outside of that great run at the end of 2005 really looked lost at this level.

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Re: Game 11 thoughts: Dolphins at Patriots

Post by Umix10 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:46 pm

I said this before in another thread. The coaching pool is very limited. Even proven coaches get canned for not living up to expectations. The really crappy part is that there is a down side to everything. If you are looking to get long term results and stability then your margin for error on selecting a young head coach is very very slim(like picking Gase). IMHO selecting Gase was good at the time; however he shouldn't have been able to select the coaching staff by himself. IMHO he was young and no coaching experience. OC don't count if you ask me. Mike Nolan as DC would have been a good choice for Associate HC and DC. Nolan is the LB's coach for NO and look where they are now.

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