Free agent news - Dolphins and general NFL

finfanatic wrote:

I am still a proponent for planning this year to lose the valuable starter who will be big money free agent next season. Get someone in that can study and learn behind that player and maybe be the backup this year. Hard to do when you have traded away most of your picks or the idiot owner has lost you some picks, but...

That is definitely the ideal plan - just not sure it's doable for the Dolphins this season unless they can acquire more picks.

Robert Hunt is far and away the best offensive linemen on the Dolphins. and Robert Hunt will be a Pro-Bowler and one of the top guards (and maybe even RT) in the league - for his next team. truth is, as talented as Hunt is, he is not a scheme fit for what McDaniel wants in his athletic, mobile, no need for power offensive line. Hunt was selected when Miami had a very different offensive system in place. his current 330lbs is not what the current offensive system wants. the Dolphins know this and Hunt knows this. Hunt knows he has a ton of value on the FA market and the Dolphins just aren't gonna pay what he's worth when he doesn't fit the finesse system. it was decided months ago (as in the middle of the season) that Miami would not bring him back.

“We had some discussions with Robert’s representation in the middle of the season and completely respected his willingness to go to free agency,” Grier said.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article286024331.html

note, "respected his willingness to go," not his desire to go. Miami didn't want him back even if he wanted to come back (and certainly not at his market worth) - cause they don't see him as a scheme fit.

and as a side note (violins in the background)... this is part of (not the only, but part of) the reason why i stopped spending a good bit of my time evaluating olinemen. the type of gap system power oline i feel fairly confident evaluating is not the type of olinemen Miami wants (right now). the type of zone athletic linemen they do want, i'm just not as comfortable as translating those necessary qualities on the college level to success on the pro level (and based on recent drafts, neither is Miami). so for all you guys mocking and hoping for some toughness being drafted for the oline...well, i wish you luck - cause i don't think its likely.

Good post, merc.

I don't think athleticism and toughness are mutually exclusive. Look at a guy like Jackson Powers-Johnson. I know 316 calls him soft, but that's not what I've seen. When I watch him play I see a mauler that knocks down anything in his path - but also moves with exceptional quickness and agility for a man that size. Admittedly it is a pretty rare combination - but I do think there are mean, nasty linemen that can move as well.

McD has said on numerous occasions that he would love to get big, strong linemen - it's just that most of them tend to be slow and don't move well. Those guys are out there - you just have to find them.

merc wrote:i'm just not as comfortable as translating those necessary qualities on the college level to success on the pro level (and based on recent drafts, neither is Miami).

Good ol'Merc and his wry sense of humor!

Based on recent drafts... that right there is indicative of something not good IMHO!

But you are probably right, Merc. Grier is approaching the Oline from the stand point of the not having to get a physically overpowering Olineman. A street free agent on a one year contract is all this offense needs to beat the bad teams in the league.

The only hope we have is that Grier and Co. have REVISED their thinking and see that scraping the bottom of the barrel in Olineman ain't getting it done versus teams like the Bills, Ravens, or Chiefs! Heck I think the Texans would have walloped Miami in the playoff last year!

As JMP pointed out, to beat teams like that, you have to have an Oline that can hold their blocks longer than 2 seconds!

Again, not trying to play both sides of the fence but how do we know what we have inline on a traditional offense? How would I know Kion Smith or Ryan Hayes wouldnt excel in a more traditional 5-7 step drop set? I really dont because we relied heavily on the schemed protection #1 to protect Tua and #2 hide the deficiencies on the pass pro.

Nobody can tell me otherwise. The proof is in the record against.......wait for it......not against winning teams but teams that we should have beat and lost in the 4th because of blocking issues,.

It's sounding like Wilkins is going to test the free agent market. That absolutely sucks, but I can't blame him for trying to get as much money as he can. That's the problem with drafting great players - you eventually have to pay them!

On the bright side, we should be in line for some comp picks next season. I guess that's something.

I cannot paint the Wilkins situation as a positive.

The time to get his deal done was last offseason. I won’t name anyone but the front office screwed this up. We are too prone to letting talented players hit free agency. The correct approach is to sign extensions when they are still developing but don’t have the stats yet to demand top of the market contracts.

I’ll wait to see the end result. In other words, if we’re playing top ten defense then no complaints.


I’m seeing too many red flags to have confidence. Howard? Too expensive but no real backup plan. Van Ginkel? Not worth signing until Fangio watched his tape. Now he’s damn near indespensible given injuries to our lead pass rushers.

The strength of this draft appears to be WR and offensive line. We have holes to fill at CB edge and now probably DT. Instead of exploiting the strength of the draft we will “reach” to fill needs. The definition of treading water.

white1 wrote:I cannot paint the Wilkins situation as a positive.

The time to get his deal done was last offseason. I won’t name anyone but the front office screwed this up. We are too prone to letting talented players hit free agency. The correct approach is to sign extensions when they are still developing but don’t have the stats yet to demand top of the market contracts.

I’ll wait to see the end result. In other words, if we’re playing top ten defense then no complaints.


I’m seeing too many red flags to have confidence. Howard? Too expensive but no real backup plan. Van Ginkel? Not worth signing until Fangio watched his tape. Now he’s damn near indespensible given injuries to our lead pass rushers.

The strength of this draft appears to be WR and offensive line. We have holes to fill at CB edge and now probably DT. Instead of exploiting the strength of the draft we will “reach” to fill needs. The definition of treading water.

Wilkins did not want to sign an extension last offseason - the Dolphins offered, and he said no. He wants more money than they want to pay. I don't see how this is a mistake by the Dolphins. You can't force a player to sign.

It will suck to lose Wilkins - it's a massive loss if it happens. But until we know who will replace him, there's really no point in worrying about it. We could end up getting a quality DT at a reasonable price, and spread the rest of the money around on multiple players and ultimately make the team better. Losing a good player does not have to be a negative.

As for losing Howard, he was not a good player last season and he cost a ton. How do you know there's not a backup plan? I am pretty sure there is - we just don't know it yet. It could be Cam Smith or a free agent or a draft pick - again, we don't know, so why assume it will be a negative? On the contrary, I think it'll be pretty easy to find an upgrade at corner at a reasonable price - and we may already have the answer in-house.

AVG is a nice player, and one of my favorites. But he's hardly indispensable. We haven't lost him yet, but if we do we can replace him. It's not like he's a perennial All Pro...he's been a role player his entire career.

And how do you know that the Dolphins are going to "reach" for players in the draft? The draft doesn't happen till the end of April! LOL

I get it - it sucks to lose players we like. But that's the nature of the business. All you can do is reload and move on.

It is the Dave Dumbstedt School of Personnel Management we are seeing with the Dolphins IMHO... "HERE is the money a DT makes and I will not go above it for love or money or even upon a directive from God Himself!!! If you want to be a part of this glorious franchise, then you will submit or you can take your worthless arse elsewhere while the Dolphins continue our proud, glorious march into NFL history!!"

And we all saw how THAT worked out!!

I don't know, maybe JMP is correct, but what I heard abouit last season's Wilkins negotiations was the years and salary were all set but the holdup was the upfront bonus and signing money Wilkins wanted. I never did hear a figure, but apparently what Wilkins wanted pushed him up near the top of what previous DTs had signed for and the Phins felt he was not worth that much. Due to lack of sacks I guess?

Here we have a DT who is the linchpin in the Defense, a team leader who gives a 110% and the contract guru Shore is arguing to save Ross money??!!

When you keep setting these arbitrary limits on positions (Dave Dumbstedt remember?) in an NFL where the cap goes up every year unless COVID... without considering the team's long term implications...then you will generally NEVER SIGN a free agent who will command more on the open market.

I have stated it before, they should have made it a priority to sign Wilkins last year but they haggled over a few million per and now.... It's Dave Dumbstedt all over again.

As JMP says, this might not be the unmitigated disaster we all think it is, especially if they can lock up Tua and sign a few other key guys, but just like with Howard, replacing Wilkins is not going to that easy IMO.

JMP wrote:That's the problem with drafting great players - you eventually have to pay them!

which given the annual salary cap increases normally isn't a problem unless you've over-allocated too much of your salary cap to expensive free agents because you've otherwise been unable to draft quality replacements.

finfanatic wrote:

I don't know, maybe JMP is correct, but what I heard abouit last season's Wilkins negotiations was the years and salary were all set but the holdup was the upfront bonus and signing money Wilkins wanted. I never did hear a figure, but apparently what Wilkins wanted pushed him up near the top of what previous DTs had signed for and the Phins felt he was not worth that much. Due to lack of sacks I guess?

Here we have a DT who is the linchpin in the Defense, a team leader who gives a 110% and the contract guru Shore is arguing to save Ross money??!!

When you keep setting these arbitrary limits on positions (Dave Dumbstedt remember?) in an NFL where the cap goes up every year unless COVID... without considering the team's long term implications...then you will generally NEVER SIGN a free agent who will command more on the open market.

So you think the team should cave when a player demands more money? I sure don't believe that.

Yes, the guaranteed money was/is the sticking point - as it is in every contract negotiation, since that is the only money that is "real"...the player may not ever see a good portion of the non-guaranteed money.

But why do you you assume the dollar amount the Dolphins are willing to pay is "arbitrary"? It's not arbitrary at all - it's based on research the team has done and it is the number they are comfortable with. I cannot blame them for drawing a line in the sand - that's what good teams do. You don't just bend over and take it when a player makes demands.

There's still time to make a deal with Wilkins before free agency opens, so we'll see what happens. But if he chooses to go for a bigger deal somewhere else, that's on him - not the Dolphins. Again, I don't blame him at all - but I don't blame the Dolphins for playing hardball either. In the end, it's just business - and the team will survive with or without Wilkins.

mercury22nathan wrote:

JMP wrote:That's the problem with drafting great players - you eventually have to pay them!

which given the annual salary cap increases normally isn't a problem unless you've over-allocated too much of your salary cap to expensive free agents because you've otherwise been unable to draft quality replacements.

So...which is it? Should we spend big money on great players or not? The Dolphins get criticized for handing out too many big contracts, but now with Wilkins they're being criticized for not handing out a big contract.

JMP wrote:

white1 wrote:The time to get his deal done was last offseason.

Wilkins did not want to sign an extension last offseason - the Dolphins offered, and he said no.  He wants more money than they want to pay.

i'm not gonna go back and re-write history. if i recall, at the time there was a lot of us (me included) arguing that Wilkins' demands were too high and that Miami should not sign him. i'm sure DF316 can go back and find the threads and we can see who was for/against resigning him at the time. so i am not going to now criticize them from not having signed him last offseason.

however, they knew they were taking a risk that his performance (especially the pass rush aspects) might match his salary expectations and what he could get on the open market. Miami's falling is in not being properly prepared from a salary cap perspective for that eventuality - as well as the likely possibility of losing drafted and developed talent like Hunt.

who knows, one or maybe both of these guys might be back, but right now its not looking good.

JMP wrote:

mercury22nathan wrote:

JMP wrote:That's the problem with drafting great players - you eventually have to pay them!

which given the annual salary cap increases normally isn't a problem unless you've over-allocated too much of your salary cap to expensive free agents because you've otherwise been unable to draft quality replacements.

So...which is it?  Should we spend big money on great players or not?  The Dolphins get criticized for handing out too many big contracts, but now with Wilkins they're being criticized for not handing out a big contract.  

Miami should've drafted well enough that they wouldn't have been in the position to have to overspend on the free agent market in the first place.

while i love having guys like Hill, Chubb, Armstead (when healthy), Sieler and Ramsey (lesser guys like DeShon Elliot, David Long Jr., Conor Williams, Raheem Mostert) on the Dolphins, i think a far better way to go would've been to at least draft well enough that not ALL these positions needed to be filled via free agency.  some of them would've been fine, but 9 of the teams core is a bit much. And not sustainable in the long run nor does it allow a team to resign their own homegrown players that do excel.

mercury22nathan wrote:

JMP wrote:

white1 wrote:The time to get his deal done was last offseason.

Wilkins did not want to sign an extension last offseason - the Dolphins offered, and he said no.  He wants more money than they want to pay.

however, they knew they were taking a risk that his performance (especially the pass rush aspects) might match his salary expectations and what he could get on the open market.  Miami's falling is in not being properly prepared from a salary cap perspective for that eventuality - as well as the likely possibility of losing drafted and developed talent like Hunt.

Again - it's not "taking a risk": Wilkins did not want to sign for the money the Phins offered. You can't force players to sign for less money. It takes two to tango, as they say.

Why do you assume the Dolphins weren't prepared? I'm sure they knew exactly what to expect when both Wilkins and Hunt turned down their initial offers, and knew that they could potentially lose both players. Just as I'm sure they have a plan in place for dealing with the cap this year and beyond.

JMP wrote:Again - it's not "taking a risk"

well, it was taking a risk if the preferred ultimate goal was to keep Wilkins.

JMP wrote:Why do you assume the Dolphins weren't prepared?  I'm sure they knew exactly what to expect when both Wilkins and Hunt turned down their initial offers, and knew that they could potentially lose both players.

now if the plan was to lose 2 of the best players they've drafted over the past few years (and potentially 2 of the better players at their positions overall) with nothing to show for it, then yes, that plan is working to perfection.

mercury22nathan wrote:

Miami should've drafted well enough that they wouldn't have been in the position to have to overspend on the free agent market in the first place.

Every team signs high-priced free agents. It's how the league works. No team is built entirely through the draft.

mercury22nathan wrote:

JMP wrote:Again - it's not "taking a risk"

well, it was taking a risk if the preferred ultimate goal was to keep Wilkins.

JMP wrote:Why do you assume the Dolphins weren't prepared?  I'm sure they knew exactly what to expect when both Wilkins and Hunt turned down their initial offers, and knew that they could potentially lose both players.

now if the plan was to lose 2 of the best players they've drafted over the past few years (and potentially 2 of the better players at their positions overall) with nothing to show for it, then yes, that plan is working to perfection.

How is it "taking a risk"? They tried to sign Wilkins - he didn't want to sign. That's not a risk.

None of us know what the Dolphins plans are for this offseason. But to assume that they are just going through the process willy nilly without any idea of what's happening is just plain wrong.

USA Today wrote:Miami has quite a few free agents who would be a huge loss if they signed elsewhere, but Christian Wilkins would certainly be the largest. Not only has he been one of the league’s best interior defensive linemen over the last few seasons, but he’s also been a perfect role model for young players in the organization. His work ethic and routine are unmatched around the team’s facilities, and the Dolphins should be paying him not only for his work on the field but to show others that if they were like Wilkins, they wouldn’t have to go elsewhere to receive what they’re owed. – Mike Masala, Dolphins Wire

Exactly. You keep your homegrown (drafted) talent and reward them for their performance on the field. Especially someone who is a team leader.

JMP wrote:Yes, the guaranteed money was/is the sticking point - as it is in every contract negotiation, since that is the only money that is "real"...the player may not ever see a good portion of the non-guaranteed money.

Exactly. So you are advocating that Wilkins and other players give the Dolphins a break and sign for a lot of non-guaranteed money?? When at any moment a team may decide to cut a player due to the non-guaranteed contracts they sign! I know most fans will always take the team's side, but what I see is the Phins failure to reward a homegrown talent who has done everything they asked of him and had his best season while playing on his fifth year option for the team!

In the SI article linked below... the last Drafted Dlineman the Phins re-signed was Paul Soliau in 2011? And this was a year after they franchise tagged him!!

Wilkins is going to get more than Miami wants to pay. This is the way Miami operates when it comes to their own drafted Dlinemen.

Anyway...I posted a while back that I thought the Phins cap situation was going to bring about several "WTH!", "WTF!" and some "Shiite!" for Phins Phans. Ogbah was expected.  Howard was semi-expected but still stung. Losing Wilkins is going to be a big "WTF??!!" IMO.

Wilkins

Wilkins is seeking a multi-year deal that makes him one of the five highest-paid defensive tackles in the NFL. That would require a four- or five-year contract that pays him north of $19 million a season and guarantees him something in the neighborhood of $55-70 million.

And this is why the Phins are going to let Wilkins test free agency. They cannot afford to pay him that much and keep Tua and any of the other free agents they want to sign this year and maybe lock up one or two of next year's free agents. Or it seems likely that is the reason? Who knows for sure?

We'll soon learn if the Dolphins have a master plan, one that will improve the team, or if they're simply too frugal to retain a foundational piece at market price.

Master plan? From the Dolphins?

We shall see.

Some NFL updates:

--WR Mike Williams signed a 2-year deal to stay with the Bucs.
--The Chiefs will use the franchise tag on CB L’Jarius Sneed.
--DT Chris Jones is expected to sign a new deal with the Chiefs that colud pay him $27-28 million per year on average.
--The Giants are cutting veteran guard Mark Glowinski.
--The Cowboys are not expected to re-sign LT Tyron Smith.
--Giants' TE Darren Waller is retiring. Giants' TE Darren Waller is not retiring. Giants' TE Darren Waller has no idea what he's doing yet. LOL

JMP wrote:

mercury22nathan wrote:

Miami should've drafted well enough that they wouldn't have been in the position to have to overspend on the free agent market in the first place.

Every team signs high-priced free agents.  It's how the league works.  No team is built entirely through the draft.

absolutely. the problem is not signing high priced FAs alone. its that Miami has drafted so poorly that they've had to pay high priced FAs at a greater ratio versus drafted talent.

JMP wrote:How is it "taking a risk"?  They tried to sign Wilkins - he didn't want to sign.  That's not a risk.

he didn't want to sign for what they were offering. because they can't offer market value due to their salary commitments to previously signed FAs.

finfanatic wrote:

USA Today wrote:Miami has quite a few free agents who would be a huge loss if they signed elsewhere, but Christian Wilkins would certainly be the largest. Not only has he been one of the league’s best interior defensive linemen over the last few seasons, but he’s also been a perfect role model for young players in the organization. His work ethic and routine are unmatched around the team’s facilities, and the Dolphins should be paying him not only for his work on the field but to show others that if they were like Wilkins, they wouldn’t have to go elsewhere to receive what they’re owed. – Mike Masala, Dolphins Wire

Exactly. You keep your homegrown (drafted) talent and reward them for their performance on the field. Especially someone who is a team leader.

JMP wrote:Yes, the guaranteed money was/is the sticking point - as it is in every contract negotiation, since that is the only money that is "real"...the player may not ever see a good portion of the non-guaranteed money.

Exactly. So you are advocating that Wilkins and other players give the Dolphins a break and sign for a lot of non-guaranteed money?? When at any moment a team may decide to cut a player due to the non-guaranteed contracts they sign! I know most fans will always take the team's side, but what I see is the Phins failure to reward a homegrown talent who has done everything they asked of him and had his best season while playing on his fifth year option for the team!

In the SI article linked below... the last Drafted Dlineman the Phins re-signed was Paul Soliau in 2011? And this was a year after they franchise tagged him!!

Wilkins is going to get more than Miami wants to pay. This is the way Miami operates when it comes to their own drafted Dlinemen.

Anyway...I posted a while back that I thought the Phins cap situation was going to bring about several "WTH!", "WTF!" and some "Shiite!" for Phins Phans. Ogbah was expected.  Howard was semi-expected but still stung. Losing Wilkins is going to be a big "WTF??!!" IMO.

Wilkins

Wilkins is seeking a multi-year deal that makes him one of the five highest-paid defensive tackles in the NFL. That would require a four- or five-year contract that pays him north of $19 million a season and guarantees him something in the neighborhood of $55-70 million.

And this is why the Phins are going to let Wilkins test free agency. They cannot afford to pay him that much and keep Tua and any of the other free agents they want to sign this year and maybe lock up one or two of next year's free agents. Or it seems likely that is the reason? Who knows for sure?

We'll soon learn if the Dolphins have a master plan, one that will improve the team, or if they're simply too frugal to retain a foundational piece at market price.

Master plan? From the Dolphins?

We shall see.

Of course it's great to keep homegrown talent - but at what price? I can't blame the Dolphins for not wanting to go over a certain amount, and I can't blame Wilkins for wanting more. In the end, the Dolphins can only do what they can do - the final decision is up to Wilkins and his agent.

For the record, I'm not advocating for anything with the Wilkins situation. Both sides have stated their intentions to each other, and none of us know what those intentions are. The bottom line is, they'll either work out a deal or they won't. But the fact remains, it takes two sides to get a deal done, and the Dolphins cannot force Wilkins to accept their offer.

I would never say that Wilkins (or any player) should take less to stay in Miami - he is free to do as he chooses. I'm not sure where you thought I said that, but that has never been my stance. I am typically on the players' side in these matters, if anything.

I still think Wilkins will stay with the Dolphins, but we'll know soon enough.

mercury22nathan wrote:its that Miami has drafted so poorly that they've had to pay high priced FAs at a greater ratio versus drafted talent.

Or, they chose to use draft assets to add veteran talent. And of course, they lost a first round pick because Flores went on his racist crusade.