Mining aqua and orange gems

Mike Westhoff is responsible for Zach Thomas and Norv Turner for Jason Taylor???...

He was the lone NFL assistant to visit in Lubbock, Texas, that afternoon to meet the too-small linebacker. He asked to watch the linebacker’s worst game with him, worked him out and then did something that surprised the draft prospect.

“I didn’t do 24 bench presses like you wrote — I only did 22,” Zach Thomas told Miami Dolphins assistant Mike Westhoff.

Hall of Famer Jason Taylor? Washington coach Norv Turner, a Jimmy aide in Dallas, said the skinny defensive end from Akron was the best player on the Senior Bowl team Turner coached — but Washington’s execs didn’t like him. Jimmy liked him.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dave-hyde-story-behind-zach-093000246.html

Ohio State legend Woody Hayes gave Westhoff some great draft advice back in 1974...

“I never saw a weightlifter who was a football player. But I saw a lot of football players who learned to lift weights. Don’t let a number be the deciding point in picking a player.”

and of course we all remember this famous incident...

Two weeks into camp, Thomas was such a talent Johnson called veteran linebacker Jack Del Rio into his office. Del Rio thought he was going to be named captain. He was cut instead.

mostly posting because it feels good to remanence about by gone greats.  but it sure would be nice to have a feel-good story like this about one of the current Dolphins' youngsters.  who could it be???....

That's a great article. Hopefully Grier has put together a staff that can help unearth some of those gems. Players like Raekwon Davis, Myles Gaskin, Solomon Kindley and Andrew Van Ginkel could bring similar stories in years to come if they continue to develop.

Oh now you've done it Merc, now you've made me bust out my Zach story again. You know the one, about the time I got bored, wandered into my empty frat house (its usual state my final year of college), just happened to catch the Texas A&M/Texas Tech game, and saw this LB named Zach Thomas scored what turned out to be the game winning TD. That was literally the only time I ever saw Zach play in college but for some reason that moment stuck with me and so when JJ drafted him I got excited.

I was also excited about the Del Rio signing because I remembered him picking off Marino a couple of times in the infamous Fins-Vikings game two years before, and for some reason I completely forgot or never knew that he was 33 now (the mid '90s were a much more innocent, carefree, info-deficient time for sure) and when I found out from the newspaper clippings my DolFan granddad sent me that Zach had beaten him out of a job and out of the league altogether I'm like, "WOW!!! This Zach Thomas guy is even better than I thought!" And he was.

I never saw any college highlights of JT and had no idea who he was when he got drafted, but I remember him flashing in preseason and then in the opener that season literally stalking Jim Harbaugh into flat-out quitting. The same Harbaugh who'd come back from 21 down to beat the Fins just 2 years before.

My point is, those two wasted no time shining right away and letting me know they were the real deal, while other players (coughTuacough) haven't shown me anything like that so far. In the last 20-plus years it seems like we've seen almost nobody show out right away like Zach and JT. Can you remember anybody else? I'm not talking about players like Jake Long who were expected to be good, I'm talking about the same kind of players Merc is, the mid/late round, undrafted ones.

Also, Mike Westhoff is ancient now if he was talking to Woody Hayes a year after I was born Where did the time go???

The only thing that seems to pop with our players is tendons.

It has been a long time since we've had a rookie standout. I've been reading reports Phillips looks amazing it OTA's. Hopefully he's that rookie standout!

DolFan 316 wrote:

My point is, those two wasted no time shining right away and letting me know they were the real deal, while other players (coughTuacough) haven't shown me anything like that so far. In the last 20-plus years it seems like we've seen almost nobody show out right away like Zach and JT. Can you remember anybody else? I'm not talking about players like Jake Long who were expected to be good, I'm talking about the same kind of players Merc is, the mid/late round, undrafted ones.

So lately you haven't seen any mid/late-round picks play up to the level of Hall of Famers as rookies. Wow, imagine that!

Seriously, you really need to lower your expectations with rookies. You probably would have cut Troy Aikman and Josh Allen after their rookie seasons!

As great as JT, Zach, Madison, Taylor, Surtain, Bowens, Gardener all were... those teams never made much post-season noise. Great defense that couldn't carry the team and our average offense against the better teams in the league.

What I'm seeing from Flores team is better. Many players have shown marked improvement under this staff. The coaches are showing the ability to coach and develop players, which is just as important if not MORE important than finding the best football players in the draft.

In short, yes I love to see us grab future HOF candidates that show up immediately as rookies. Regarding long term success, continued development and advancement of players each year is far more important.

white1 wrote:As great as JT, Zach, Madison, Taylor, Surtain, Bowens, Gardener all were... those teams never made much post-season noise.  Great defense that couldn't carry the team and our average offense against the better teams in the league.

What I'm seeing from Flores team is better.  Many players have shown marked improvement under this staff.  The coaches are showing the ability to coach and develop players, which is just as important if not MORE important than finding the best football players in the draft.

In short, yes I love to see us grab future HOF candidates that show up immediately as rookies.  Regarding long term success, continued development and advancement of players each year is far more important.

Absolutely. And as I keep saying, this regime is not necessarily looking for "stars" - they are looking for players that are coachable, versatile and can play within the schemes the coaches develop. Of course, we hope guys like Waddle and Phillips also become "stars", but the bottom line is building a TEAM first.

Miami is being built through the draft. No stars yet but we seem to be getting more solid players. I still think we need players other teams have to game plan for. I hope Waddle and Fuller are those guys. Their speed is scary and teams will need to plan accordingly.

It has been a long time since we drafted a star you knew was a star.

I Agree so much with the Fact That Zach, Taylor, Madison, Surtain, Bowens didn’t do Squat in Post Season Play. When the Offense could have used just a Little Bit of Help. Won Two Playoff games one against Buffalo and the Colts when Smith Lost His Mind .

JMP wrote:So lately you haven't seen any mid/late-round picks play up to the level of Hall of Famers as rookies.  Wow, imagine that!  

Seriously, you really need to lower your expectations with rookies.  You probably would have cut Troy Aikman and Josh Allen after their rookie seasons!  

Hall Of Famers?!?! Who said anything about Hall Of Famers? I sure didn't use that term in my post

All I really want is for some rookies to show *something* that'll indicate they're good, as opposed to mediocre or worse stopgap JAGs who are only starting by default. Because being constantly told I have to wait 4-5 years for rookies to get past the mediocre level when 1.) other rookies on other teams have no problem doing it right away and 2.) even teams themselves aren't waiting anywhere near that long to judge their own draft picks is getting old.

JMP wrote:You probably would have cut Troy Aikman and Josh Allen after their rookie seasons!  

I wouldn't, but most current NFL teams would. I've never seen so many teams now throwing their first round picks under the bus after one season, it's literally unprecedented in NFL history. I refuse to believe the Bills didn't at least think about it, they probably only hung on to Allen to save face after being roasted for the pick by pretty much every draft expert and pundit (they ALL had Allen pegged as a bust before that draft).

white1 wrote:As great as JT, Zach, Madison, Taylor, Surtain, Bowens, Gardener all were... those teams never made much post-season noise.  Great defense that couldn't carry the team and our average offense against the better teams in the league.

AVERAGE?!?! You actually think the JJ offenses were as high as AVERAGE?!?! You really DO like to look at things through an optimistic lens

Even WANNY drafted more decent players on offense than snake oil salesman JJ! We're talking about somebody who looked at Randy Moss and said, "Nah, I don't need that bum, I'd rather have John Avery instead!" Somebody who refused to draft O-linemen in the first round at a time when multiple first round O-linemen were turning out to be Hall Of Famers. Someone who said, "I don't care if Yatil Green couldn't go a week without being hurt in college, he'll stay perfectly healthy for ME!" Someone who thought signing Lawrence Phillips was a swell idea--a season after making what turned out to be his best offensive draft pick by far (KAJ). Someone who saw fit to draft Cecil Collins because hey, what would be the harm? It's not as if he's a pervert who likes to molest women or anything! What do you mean, he broke into some woman's apartment just to watch her sleep, that's no big deal! Boys will be boys, amirite? Not that any of this kept JJ's offense from setting a franchise record for worst yards per carry for a season which even the 2019 team couldn't break! Hell, the best WR JJ acquired fell into his lap by sheer accident (Gadsden) and was probably the league's slowest one when he played! And oh, wouldn't be a great idea to forbid my Hall Of Fame QB from ever calling audibles!

(Takes deep breath.) Okay, I better stop before I have an aneurysm.

The one player I think we drafted last year that has pro bowl talent is Hunt! That man moves people and that's not an easy feat.

CarsonChris wrote:The one player I think we drafted last year that has pro bowl talent is Hunt! That man moves people and that's not an easy  feat.

Yeah, he might be the real deal and I totally understand why he'd be moved to guard. Let's just hope Flores doesn't screw it up by flip flopping him back to OT every other game.

None of the other rookies have shown to be anything other than average at best, though. So far. The one fairly recent Grier pick who stood out got traded away (sighs).

DolFan 316 wrote:Hall Of Famers?!?! Who said anything about Hall Of Famers? I sure didn't use that term in my post

You said: "In the last 20-plus years it seems like we've seen almost nobody show out right away like Zach and JT."

JT is a Hall of Famer. Zach is a borderline Hall of Famer that will likely get in sooner than later. Those guys don't come along very often, for any team.

DolFan 316 wrote:

JMP wrote:You probably would have cut Troy Aikman and Josh Allen after their rookie seasons!  

I wouldn't, but most current NFL teams would. I've never seen so many teams now throwing their first round picks under the bus after one season, it's literally unprecedented in NFL history. I refuse to believe the Bills didn't at least think about it, they probably only hung on to Allen to save face after being roasted for the pick by pretty much every draft expert and pundit (they ALL had Allen pegged as a bust before that draft).

Yep, I think that since the rookie salaries have been slotted and top picks can't get outrageous contracts anymore, it is much easier for teams to give up on first rounders than it used to be. Quite frankly, a lot of teams don't take the time to develop players anymore...it's produce now or get out. I think that attitude is fortunately starting to change as we see more young head coaches, and coaches coming in from college.

DolFan 316 wrote:

white1 wrote:As great as JT, Zach, Madison, Taylor, Surtain, Bowens, Gardener all were... those teams never made much post-season noise.  Great defense that couldn't carry the team and our average offense against the better teams in the league.

AVERAGE?!?! You actually think the JJ offenses were as high as AVERAGE?!?! You really DO like to look at things through an optimistic lens

Even WANNY drafted more decent players on offense than snake oil salesman JJ! We're talking about somebody who looked at Randy Moss and said, "Nah, I don't need that bum, I'd rather have John Avery instead!" Somebody who refused to draft O-linemen in the first round at a time when multiple first round O-linemen were turning out to be Hall Of Famers. Someone who said, "I don't care if Yatil Green couldn't go a week without being hurt in college, he'll stay perfectly healthy for ME!" Someone who thought signing Lawrence Phillips was a swell idea--a season after making what turned out to be his best offensive draft pick by far (KAJ). Someone who saw fit to draft Cecil Collins because hey, what would be the harm? It's not as if he's a pervert who likes to molest women or anything! What do you mean, he broke into some woman's apartment just to watch her sleep, that's no big deal! Boys will be boys, amirite? Not that any of this kept JJ's offense from setting a franchise record for worst yards per carry for a season which even the 2019 team couldn't break! Hell, the best WR JJ acquired fell into his lap by sheer accident (Gadsden) and was probably the league's slowest one when he played! And oh, wouldn't be a great idea to forbid my Hall Of Fame QB from ever calling audibles!

(Takes deep breath.) Okay, I better stop before I have an aneurysm.

JJ would have been crucified for it, but in retrospect he probably should have traded Marino for a boatload of picks when he took over the team. If he wasn't going to let Dan be Dan, what was the point of keeping him? Maybe some of those picks could have been used on offensive studs...assuming JJ could draft a good offensive player at that stage, which is clearly in question.

But JJ does get all the credit for the back-to-back 11-5 Wannstedt teams...teams that were built entirely on Jimmy's defense. I LOVED those teams.

JMP wrote:JJ would have been crucified for it, but in retrospect he probably should have traded Marino for a boatload of picks when he took over the team.  If he wasn't going to let Dan be Dan, what was the point of keeping him?  Maybe some of those picks could have been used on offensive studs...assuming JJ could draft a good offensive player at that stage, which is clearly in question.

And had he done that, JJ would've blown a first rounder on a massive QB bust (Ryan Leaf perhaps or even worse, Jim Druckenmiller) because he certainly didn't show any ability whatsoever to evaluate offensive talent once he got to Miami. Hell, Aikman fell into his lap the same way Luck fell into Ryan Grigson's lap--who wound up also being an awful GM. Even if TY Hilton was a much better offensive pick than anybody JJ selected.

But JJ does get all the credit for the back-to-back 11-5 Wannstedt teams...teams that were built entirely on Jimmy's defense.  I LOVED those teams.

The '00 team was the last one I thought had any chance at reaching a Super Bowl. I'm not sure I "loved" the '08 or '16 teams, they were more of a stressful rollercoaster ride that somehow was survived. Also, the '02 and '03 teams scored more than any of JJ's did, with Wanny's first team scoring only 3 fewer points than JJ's last even with Fiedler replacing Marino and possibly the worst post-merger receiving corps in franchise history As as I said earlier, Chambers and Misogynist McMichael were better offensive players than anyone JJ drafted, with even the likes of Todd Wade being a better O-lineman than any of JJ's picks. If anything those teams make JJ look even MORE incompetent, since Wanny had not one but two 11-win seasons which is more than JJ could ever manage.

JMP wrote:Yep, I think that since the rookie salaries have been slotted and top picks can't get outrageous contracts anymore, it is much easier for teams to give up on first rounders than it used to be.  Quite frankly, a lot of teams don't take the time to develop players anymore...it's produce now or get out.  I think that attitude is fortunately starting to change as we see more young head coaches, and coaches coming in from college.

IMO it's actually the opposite--all the young coaches coming into the NFL have brought that attitude with them. We're seeing the effects of millennial coaches taking over for the first time, and their behavior reflects everything we've already seen from that generation: give me what I want RIGHT NOW or else! It's definitely not the people who have been NFL GMs and coaches for decades that are perpetuating this, although they are going along with it just like everyone always goes along with whatever millenials want in general.

There's now literally no difference between how NFL teams are actually run and how they're run by Youtubers playing Madden, which is scary to me

Remember too with all the coach turnover, they always jettison a lot of players to give the illusion that they know what they're doing. A QB draft pick from the prior administration has almost zero chance to make it with the new coach.

Degarmo wrote:Remember too with all the coach turnover, they always jettison a lot of players to give the illusion that they know what they're doing.  A QB draft pick from the prior administration has almost zero chance to make it with the new coach.

Like JJ did when he took over the Fins in '96. (See what I did there? )

It's sad in retrospect that I was actually excited to see most of the last Shula teams go. Little did I know that the offense would be so completely gutted that even having two HOF caliber players and a couple more Hall Of Very Good players on D wouldn't be enough to do better than Shula's last four seasons (sighs).

DolFan 316 wrote:

Degarmo wrote:Remember too with all the coach turnover, they always jettison a lot of players to give the illusion that they know what they're doing.  A QB draft pick from the prior administration has almost zero chance to make it with the new coach.

Like JJ did when he took over the Fins in '96. (See what I did there? )

It's sad in retrospect that I was actually excited to see most of the last Shula teams go. Little did I know that the offense would be so completely gutted that even having two HOF caliber players and a couple more Hall Of Very Good players on D wouldn't be enough to do better than Shula's last four seasons (sighs).

I still remember a broadcaster saying Miami's cut down day was considered to be the NFL's second draft as teams were interested in who the Dolphins cut. I miss the Shula era.

DolFan 316 wrote:

JMP wrote:Yep, I think that since the rookie salaries have been slotted and top picks can't get outrageous contracts anymore, it is much easier for teams to give up on first rounders than it used to be.  Quite frankly, a lot of teams don't take the time to develop players anymore...it's produce now or get out.  I think that attitude is fortunately starting to change as we see more young head coaches, and coaches coming in from college.

IMO it's actually the opposite--all the young coaches coming into the NFL have brought that attitude with them. We're seeing the effects of millennial coaches taking over for the first time, and their behavior reflects everything we've already seen from that generation: give me what I want RIGHT NOW or else! It's definitely not the people who have been NFL GMs and coaches for decades that are perpetuating this, although they are going along with it just like everyone always goes along with whatever millenials want in general.

There's now literally no difference between how NFL teams are actually run and how they're run by Youtubers playing Madden, which is scary to me

I think Kliff Kingsbury is the poster boy for what you just said - he's definitely got that millennial view.  Not that he wasn't right to dump Rosen and draft Murray, but still...he comes across as an entitled douchebag!

I was referring to younger (in NFL terms) coaches like Flores, Stefanski and Rhule, and maybe even (unfortunately) Saleh from what I can tell so far.  Those guys seem to "get it" in terms of being willing and able to develop talent. Or maybe it's not even "younger" coaches...maybe more related to first-time NFL head coaches.

JMP wrote:

JJ would have been crucified for it, but in retrospect he probably should have traded Marino for a boatload of picks when he took over the team.  If he wasn't going to let Dan be Dan, what was the point of keeping him?  Maybe some of those picks could have been used on offensive studs...assuming JJ could draft a good offensive player at that stage, which is clearly in question.

But JJ does get all the credit for the back-to-back 11-5 Wannstedt teams...teams that were built entirely on Jimmy's defense.  I LOVED those teams.

Jimmy's weakness was exposed in Miami.  He inherited Irvin (wasn't that impressed with him), had Aikman as a no-brainer # 1 pick his first draft, didn't want to take Emmitt in the first round.  Novacek was already there, as were Newton, Gogan, Tuinei on the O-line.  He does get credit for Erik Williams and Stepnoski as third round picks and Johnston for sure, but offense was not his specialty and once he was in Miami, he ran off more offensive starters than he was able to draft or trade for.  In Dallas he simply had a lot of offensive stars already in place for him (Landry was not doing a good job at developing players OR calling games by the late 1980s)

In 1999, he actually had a viable solution to the RB problem for a 7th round pick in Tyrone Wheatley, and then cut him to keep Collins and Johnson!  Wheatley put up very good seasons in 1999 and 2000 for the Raiders and remained a valuable rotation player there through 2004.  Hell, he did more in Oakland than any of the RB's JJ brought in here careerwise. Just imagine if we had used a few of those 1999 draft picks on other needs instead of spending every single one trying to find a RB...then again, that draft was among Miami's weakest ever.

Jimmy deserves credit for drafting a defense that might well have produced a Super Bowl if a COMPETENT HEAD COACH had followed Johnson.  Unfortunately, by saddling Wayne with Wanny Jimmy ensured there was no chance of that happening.  He got on my shit list when he gave the Chargers completely different advice the following year, advising Spanos to hire a GM and let the GM hire the coach.  Better advice for the guy who you had no affiliation with before than you gave a guy who handed you a nice retirement contract and pushed out the greatest coach of all time to do it?

Finding out JJ had been inducted into the Hall Of Fame--after never even being considered as remotely worthy the entire time before--is when I finally experienced what SJWs feel 24/7. And even I, the Potentate Of Pessimism, can't imagine living that way every second of every day for the rest of my life. I'm baffled, befuddled and bewildered as to how they manage it. Zach damn well better get in soon to make up for that traveshamockery.

I can even understand how JJ's heart wasn't in it anymore after his mom died, but he could've just quit and turned things over to Wanny a year early instead of half-assing it when he never wanted to be there that whole season.

DolFan 316 wrote:

I can even understand how JJ's heart wasn't in it anymore after his mom died, but he could've just quit and turned things over to Wanny a year early instead of half-assing it when he never wanted to be there that whole season.

I'll always love JJ for his work with the Canes and for drafting some of my all-time favorite Dolphins. But yes, that last season ended in absolute disaster and he clearly didn't want to coach anymore. He definitely should've left sooner.

Degarmo wrote:Remember too with all the coach turnover, they always jettison a lot of players to give the illusion that they know what they're doing.  A QB draft pick from the prior administration has almost zero chance to make it with the new coach.

Look no further than....Wanny himself.  JJ had pretty much groomed Damon Huard to be the post-Marino starter, but Wannstedt's choice to come in and compete was Jay Fiedler.

And no matter who was available after that....Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Drew Brees in the draft....Fielder was always Wanny's choice.

For the difference between a great coach and a not-so-great coach, consider Shula with Woodley compared with Wanny with Fiedler.  Shula liked Woodley a lot, to the point of trading Guy Benjamin and shopping Strock before that in 1980 after Woodley impressed in TC.  Woodley, like Fiedler and so many others, had stopgap skills as a starter.  But when the opportunity to upgrade came in the 1983 draft, Shula didn't hesitate.

Wanny, on the other hand, well, the only way to avoid a QB controversy was to just never bring in anyone capable of supplanting Fiedler.  I guess that's one way to do it.....Of course, it is debatable whether Wanny would have been better off just starting Huard for a year then looking to upgrade either via draft or trade in the 2000-2001 off season (I think yes, myself----not a knock on Fiedler but 2000 was all Lamar and defense).