Tua played at 60% last season

I just saw an article where they said Tua played at 60% last season?

https://dolphinswire.usatoday.com/2021/06/02/tua-tagovailoas-trainer-speculates-he-was-at-60-percent-in-2020/

Why would Flores put a not 100% Tua in when it looked like the Phins were getting on a roll with Fitz and might make the playoffs?

I smell a conspiracy here folks!!

Shhhh!!! Everyone pipe down and put on your tin foil hats and make sure no one is outside the window listening in.

They put Tua in BECAUSE they did not want to reach the Playoffs with Fitz as the QB! The cries to start Fitz next year would have been deafening, and
with an unproven Tua behind him, how hard would it have been to kick Fitz down the road and proclaim Tua the starter?
Especially if the Fitz-led Phins reached the playoffs and managed to eke out a win!!!

I have said it looked to me like they were playing VERY CONSERVATIVELY with Tua and trying to avoid getting him slobber-knocked.
Gailey loves him some draws on 3rd and long. And you could see they had Tua focused on not turning the ball over, which made him
hold the ball MORE THAN Tua would have at Alabama IMHO.

Anyway, I think Flores and company derailed the Fitz Magic Miami train on purpose to set up the Tua Express this season.

I think we will see a healthy Tua this season and one that looks more like the QB at Alabama that made many a Phins Phan want the Phins to
Tank for Tua in 2019!

No conspiracy theory...the offense was struggling mightily with Fitz, Tua was looking decent in practice, and Flores made the move during the bye week.

The offense wasn't "getting on a roll with Fitz"...in his last game as the starter, he led the offense to a grand total of zero first downs against the Jets, one of the league's worst teams.

Flores is all about winning. There's absolutely no chance that he inserted Tua simply because he was afraid of FitzMagic. He started the QB he thought gave his team the best chance to win, and he used Fitz as a relief pitcher when needed. The plan worked well, as the team went 6-3 with Tua as starter and just missed the playoffs.

The offense was ultra-conservative because A. half the players were hurt, B. Gailey didn't know anything about Tua, and C. the playbook was designed for Fitz.

Regardless, if he doesn't perform this year (Tuna Tookmybologna) there's a problem. Tinfoil hat or no, that's the bottom line.

Degarmo wrote:Regardless, if he doesn't perform this year (Tuna Tookmybologna) there's a problem.  Tinfoil hat or no, that's the bottom line.

Ok, but that has nothing to do with the crazy theory that Flores didn't want to make the playoffs! Sorry, FF! LOL

Of course Tua needs to play better, we all know that. Just like the OL needs to play better, the WRs need to play better, and right on down the line. This team is being built to compete this season...the future is now. Tua and everyone else on the team, including the coaches, need to step up and get to the next level.

JMP wrote:
Ok, but that has nothing to do with the crazy theory that Flores didn't want to make the playoffs!

Exactly.

I think Flores was worried that, after the Jets game, FitzTragic was going to take over and destroy any chance the Phins had of making the playoffs. That, combined with Tua's upside, is why he made the change IMO.

Coaches like Flores don't trust rollercoaster QBs like Fitz, that go from great to crap and back again. They want consistency.

finfanatic wrote:Why would Flores put a not 100% Tua in when it looked like the Phins were getting on a roll with Fitz and might make the playoffs?

Fitz had led the Dolphins to a 3-3 record with 3 multi-interception games. i think people confuse his late game Raiders heroics (launching a blind pass into the air) with a full season. Fitz was definitely trending in the wrong direction and Flores had to insert a not-quite-ready Tua to save the season.

and by the way, the article clarifies...

Tagovailoa was likely not near his physical peak, but that the Dolphins were likely not in the wrong to assess his health and deem him fit to play. There’s a difference between medical health and fitness and peak athletic capacity

...so this notion that Tua wasn't healthy enough to play is BS.

mercury22nathan wrote:

finfanatic wrote:Why would Flores put a not 100% Tua in when it looked like the Phins were getting on a roll with Fitz and might make the playoffs?

Fitz had led the Dolphins to a 3-3 record with 3 multi-interception games.  i think people confuse his late game Raiders heroics (launching a blind pass into the air) with a full season.  Fitz was definitely trending in the wrong direction and Flores had to insert a not-quite-ready Tua to save the season.

and by the way, the article clarifies...

Tagovailoa was likely not near his physical peak, but that the Dolphins were likely not in the wrong to assess his health and deem him fit to play. There’s a difference between medical health and fitness and peak athletic capacity

...so this notion that Tua wasn't healthy enough to play is BS.

I think you nailed it, Merc. The last thing Flores wants at QB is a guy that plays great for stretches and like garbage for stretches - that's not a sustainable path to winning games. I think he'd rather have a game manager that protects the ball over a gunslinger that is just as likely to toss a pick as he is a TD. Fitz gave us a veteran leader and really helped change the culture in the locker room, and he'll always be a fan favorite for what he brought to the team - but let's not pretend that he was a juggernaut that was going to launch us into the playoffs - that simply was not the case.

Tua clearly wasn't 100% - but just as clearly he was healthy enough to play.

Bottom line - we went on a great run with Tua as the starter and Fitz as the reliever. Ultimately, we fell short - but it gave this franchise a glimpse of legit hope for the first time in many, many years. Now, a healthier Tua and an improved roster have to build on that and take the next step forward.

Oh man, you're getting me started on the mighty might again. Bottom line, we won games because of defense and special teams. Tua sucked in 6 of 9 games. 3 games with under 100 yards passing. I hope the mighty might learns the football for dummies playbook and doesn't get hurt again this year playing as the anointed starter. Let's see what he can do with a full year of recovery and a football tutor for the playbook. If Tua comes out and lays a turd like he did in the majority of games last year then look for Miami to trade for Watson or go back to the draft well. Hopefully without Grier making the pick.

LOL Carson, I hope it never happens but you should really become a Chargers fan.  You'd be much happier, even with all the losses.  

JMP wrote:LOL Carson, I hope it never happens but you should really become a Chargers fan.  You'd be much happier, even with all the losses.  

Throwing under 100 yards is acceptable when you're a mighty might but starting in HS ball it's frowned upon. Getting pulled with a fish gaff is okay when your catching a tuna but not when you're a dolphin trying to win a game. I don't understand throwing on blinders for fansake. The majority of Tua's games were ugly last year. Not knowing the playbook was pathetic last year. I expect better from a top five pick.

I've already discussed the playbook issues, and you're completely wrong about that. And actually, if you read Tua's comments further, the issue had more to do with him not having the power to change plays than it did knowing the playbook.

Some QBs are winners, some are losers. That's what it comes down to. Tua is a winner. He proved it last year despite all the adversity he faced, and he's only going to get better. But you'd better get used to it...because he's going to be the Dolphins QB for the next 10+ years, whether you like it or not!

There's only one way for Tua to go after last years pathetic performance because it couldn't possibly be worse. We could have drafted a 7th rounder or FA and have him throw it 4.8 yards and had similar results. Tua didn't get drafted so high to throw a dump off almost every play.

CarsonChris wrote:There's only one way for Tua to go after last years pathetic performance because it couldn't possibly be worse.

Of course it could have gone worse. He could have had a rookie season like Josh Allen, who was absolutely putrid. Or he could have led his team to 2 wins in his first 9 games, like Joe Burrow and Justin Herbert did.

JMP wrote:LOL Carson, I hope it never happens but you should really become a Chargers fan.  You'd be much happier, even with all the losses.  

why would you wish that on anyone?!?!

i feel bad for the Chargers (not really) - they're a train wreck waiting to happen. they were a talented veteran team on the cusp of going 11-5 or 10-6 in a division with two struggling teams in LV and Denver. unfortunately, one misplaced needle and down goes the veteran QB and they had to turn to the rookie who wasn't even good enough to beat out the journeyman veteran in training camp. remember, Herbert didn't earn that job, he inherited after some malpractice worthy doctoring. and how did Justin respond...by losing 4 straight to start the season and amassing a 2-9 record by week 11. and in that flop of a season, Herbert was directly responsible for blowing some very close winnable games with some ill-timed melting at the worst possible moments (see the Car, at Den and NE games). let's look, for an example, how he did against another team that chose (not forced like his own team) to switch to a rookie QB: Miami 29 - Chargers 21.

Herbert 5.8 yards per attempt with 2 TD and an interception for a rating of 86.3 and a QBR of 46.7 in his 8th game as the starter.
Tua 6.8 yards per attempt with 2 TD and zero interceptions for a rating of 106.9 and a QBR of 66.6 in only his 3rd game as the starter.

they will be forever tied because of the draft, but the truth is, the performance of one has nothing to do with the other. but if you look beyond the stats, i think you'll see they are (and most likely will be) what most thought they would be prior to the draft. Tua - a player who needs to overcome his injuries to adjust to the NFL, but will get whatever it takes done to win games. Herbert - a stat compiler who will always struggle to be the leader a team needs to win consistently.

CarsonChris wrote:https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats-top-10-qbs-under-pressure-in-2020-ryan-fitzpatrick-outshines-comp

maybe i'm being daft, but i'm not sure what you're trying to argue with that link. i'll take guess.

Fitzpatrick was very much a clutch player last season, posting the highest passer rating and completion percentage under pressure among all qualified passers. He tended to let it fly more often when under pressure, averaging 1.7 more air yards per attempt than he did on unpressured throws...The downside: Fitzpatrick wasn't good at getting out of pressure situations (to say the least), posting an evaded-pressure rate of 0 percent.

Fitz was the worst at escaping pressure, so he had to be good under pressure? and thank goodness he was good under pressure because he certainly wasn't very good when not under pressure?

Fitzpatrick went from a 49 passer rating and 2:8 TD-INT ratio under pressure in 2019 to a 98.6 rating and 4:2 ratio in 2020.

so if Fitz went 4:2 TD:INT under pressure, then when he wasn't under pressure he was 9:6 - that's awful. i'll take a guy who can perform under all conditions, not just when he needs to run around and make lucky tosses without thinking.

i get it, Fitz was/is a rah-rah, team first, fan favorite, but over the course of his career, he has shown he is what he is - an inconsistent, middling journeyman with splashes of brilliance counter-balanced with putrid, boneheaded mistakes. i like the guy, but the Dolphins would be condemned to (even more) perpetual mediocrity with him at the helm.

and if this is about Herbert also being on that list, well, i wouldn't tout anything too loudly that puts a QB's ranking 4 slots behind Andy Dalton. and Herbert's under pressure rating was far worse than Tua's...

Tagovailoa had the seventh-shortest time to throw at 2.55 seconds, according to Next Gen stats. By comparison, Josh Allen had 3.04 seconds to throw, on average, and Mayfield had 3.05.

But I found this interesting: When Tagovailoa had less than 2.5 seconds to throw, he was very good: 99.6 passer rating, nine touchdowns and three interceptions. That passer rating was better than those, in that situation, for Herbert, Mayfield, Burrow and Tom Brady, among others.

Herbert is a compiler. Nice overall stats, but when the game is on the line, he chokes - always has.

Herbert's 4th quarter passer rating was 81.1. Joe Burrows's was 100.3. Tua's was 110.9. For comparison, Josh Allen's was 112.5, Pat Mahomes was 116.2 and Russell Wilson's was 93.5.

To be fair, Tua threw far fewer 4th quarter passes than all those other guys. But interestingly, Tua threw 4 TDs and 1 INT on his 65 4th quarter passes, completing 76.9%. Herbert threw 4 TDs and 4 INTs on his 151 4th quarter attempts, completing 65.6%. So Herbert threw more than twice as many passes as Tua, but they had the same number of TDs.

To compare Tua to someone with a similar amount of 4th quarter pass attempts, here's Lamar Jackson: 66 attempts, 5 TDs, 0 INTs, 117.7 rating, 68.2% completion rate.

In summary: Tua, reportedly playing at just 60% health and not fully grasping the entire playbook, put up almost identical 4th quarter stats to Lamar Jackson and blew the doors off Justin Herbert.

*Note: all stats from www.footballdb.com

To play devil's advocate I can't help but wonder what the excuses will be if Tua struggles again in an offense and with a supporting cast specifically crafted for him. Will it be said that last season somehow doesn't count because injuries, the virus, etc. and this is actually his *real* rookie season so we need to give him at least one more season after this one to "get it"? We already lived through what seemed like 5 years' worth of excuses for why Tannehill wasn't crushing it in Miami. Remember those days? It was literally always something.

Just putting that out there. Because at this point none of us know for certain how Tua will fare one way or the other.

I said pre draft it would take 3 years for the shine to wear off and 2 more before Tia is out of the league. I'm not sure which way it will go? I think Miami upgraded the receivers to where we might have the top trio of receivers in the league. Will the mighty might be able to capitalize or Will his limited brain capacity set him back? 13 on the wonderlick no wonder he couldn't learn a dumbed down version of the play book.

CarsonChris wrote:13 on the wonderlick no wonder he couldn't learn a dumbed down version of the play book.

Fake news. He scored a 13 when he started college. He scored a 19 pre-draft. Dan Marino had a 16, so clearly the Wonderlic is an important measure.

DolFan 316 wrote:To play devil's advocate I can't help but wonder what the excuses will be if Tua struggles again in an offense and with a supporting cast specifically crafted for him. Will it be said that last season somehow doesn't count because injuries, the virus, etc. and this is actually his *real* rookie season so we need to give him at least one more season after this one to "get it"? We already lived through what seemed like 5 years' worth of excuses for why Tannehill wasn't crushing it in Miami. Remember those days? It was literally always something.

Just putting that out there. Because at this point none of us know for certain how Tua will fare one way or the other.

To play devil's advocate: I can't help but wonder what the backtracking and crow-eating will look like when Tua lights up the league.

And you're right - none of us know what the future holds for Tua. So why are so many Dolfans seemingly rooting for him to fail?

Not so much rooting as expecting, due to so many rotten draft picks over the past 25 years or so.

Think about it, Tua was the player considered worth tanking for. And after all the buildup his rookie season was just...meh. Now people are assuming he'll be a flop like all the rest, while QBs like Burrow and Lawrence turn out to be the real deal. Remember, we're just recovering from the last failed first round QB.

The full story has yet to be written, but the opening chapter isn't exactly making the reader want more.

Am I right that the game where Fitz stunk so badly versus the Jets....the Phins won 24-0?

And Myles Gaskin had 91 yards rushing?

And Fitz had 191 yards passing? But Tua getting less than 100 a couple times was much better than 191??

And THAT was the performance that got Fitz benched?

My conspiracy theory post was full on sarcasm, but.... Someone EXPLAIN to me how being 3-1 after the first two putrid loss games is not being on a "roll"?

And am I actually seeing some posts that claim the Phins would NOT HAVE Gone 10-6 if Fitz had stayed the starter? Is that coming from the Marty McFly Alternative History channel or something????

Seriously... I do not think Fitz's play had ANYTHING to do with the decision. The decision was based on the long term interests of the team, not the short-term, which would have been to keep the aging journeyman QB who had just gone 3-1 to get the team back to 3-3, remember. Unless of course, that was just the defense, but 6-3 down the stretch was all Tua and no defense?



Nope, Flores knew Fitz was not the long term QB of the future, and Tua was, and when the staff deemed Tua ready to go, he was going to be inserted as the starter. To get him and the team ready for the FUTURE. In the LONG TERM best interests of the team.

It was was for THAT REASON, Tua was made the starter IMHO.

And even though he didn't completely grasp the playbook, was only 60% on his legs and athleticism, playing behind a make-shift O-line, and with a depleted corp of WRs..... Tua had some "YIKES" performances. But just think about this...How much further BEHIND would Tua be if he had not gotten the playing time. Not seen first hand the speed of the game, not seen the importance of the calls, the audibles, the shifts, and knowing the playbook 100% backwards and forwards!

Let's all thank goodness we have a HC who makes moves in the best LONG TERM interests of the team.

I still remember that stupid-arse OL Coach who said not letting 1st rd pick Vernon Carey start at RT would not have been FAIR to journeyman RT free agent John ST Clair!!!

Even today, that level of asinine stupidity makes me angry.

DolFan 316 wrote:Not so much rooting as expecting, due to so many rotten draft picks over the past 25 years or so.

Think about it, Tua was the player considered worth tanking for. And after all the buildup his rookie season was just...meh. Now people are assuming he'll be a flop like all the rest, while QBs like Burrow and Lawrence turn out to be the real deal. Remember, we're just recovering from the last failed first round QB.

The full story has yet to be written, but the opening chapter isn't exactly making the reader want more.

All depends on how you look at it. In reality, Tua's "opening chapter" wasn't nearly as bad as people are saying, and in fact was a helluva lot better than many QBs that are now considered great (Josh Allen being the most recent example). The problem is, someone posts something on Twitter and everyone runs with it without looking at facts. I just showed you how Tua's 4th quarter stats were better than Herbert's and almost exactly the same as Lamar Jackson's - but no one wants to hear things like that because it ruins the narrative that "Tua sucks".

As for Joe Burrow, he and Tua put up very similar numbers - except Burrow went 2-7-1 in his 9 starts, while Tua went 6-3. But again, the narrative that's out there is that Burrow was so much better than Tua as a rookie - and that's simply a load of bullshit.

As for "the last failed first round QB", that has absolutely nothing to do with Tua.