Suh vs. the AFC East last season

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Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:33 am

I thought it would be interesting to see how Suh did against the Jets, Bills and Patriots last season.


The Lions beat the Jets, 24-17.  But, the Jets had 132 rushing yards and converted 46% of their their downs.  Suh was credited with 1 tackle, no sacks.

The Bills beat the Lions, 17-14.  Kyle Orton had over 300 yards passing.  Suh had 5 total tackles - no sacks.

The Patriots destroyed the Lions, 34-9.  Brady had 349 passing yards, and Blount had 12 carries for 78 yards with 2 TDs.  Suh had 4 tackles - no sacks.


Not sure what this means for 2015, but it does tell me that anyone expecting Suh to be a savior for the Phins may be disappointed.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by white1 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:42 am

Good point, and I am not expecting Suh to be our savior.

One thought I wanted to offer is the proper focus for a DT. Clearly, the Lions defense was outmatched in these games, however, defense is not a one man show. If Suh is occupying double teams and forcing major offensive game plan adjustments, the players left singled up have to take advantage of the opportunity.

In our scheme that means I would expect guys like Wake, Vernon, Misi, Jenkins to make the plays that come to them based off Suh's disruption at the line of scrimmage.

I would draw a comparison to the Tampa defense in their prime. Yes, Sapp was a dominant DT, but he also had Lynch at safety and Brooks at LB as well as stellar CB play to create the top 5 unit they were.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:46 am

white1 wrote:One thought I wanted to offer is the proper focus for a DT.  Clearly, the Lions defense was outmatched in these games, however, defense is not a one man show.  If Suh is occupying double teams and forcing major offensive game plan adjustments, the players left singled up have to take advantage of the opportunity.

Very true. But, I think the Lions' D in 2014 - overall - is better than what the Phins currently have, especially at LB and DB. Obviously Miami still has time to improve, but I'm not convinced we're going to be able to surround Suh with a top defense.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by white1 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:50 am

Totally agree.

I wonder, from an offensive standpoint, how the Lions fared in those losses to the Bills and Pats?

The Patriots later in the season were simply a buzz-saw, not many teams were built to stop them on offense. I could see Stafford struggling against the Pats schemes, and the Bills monster defensive line. If the offense has a bad day, it puts a real hurt on the defense as well.

If we really want to see a playoff squad, not only do we need solid defenders around Suh, we need an effective offense that can both run and pass.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:53 am

Hell yeah. Nothing will help the Phins more IMO than an offense that can consistently dominate and score TDs.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by Degarmo on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:03 am

While I like having Suh, I think he's the kind of signing a team that's ready to make their move signs, and not a team that has half a dozen starter needs.

His value will come in freeing up others from double teams, and that's it. If those guys can't produce, it'll just be a bunch of money in the toilet. Not that Suh won't have a good year, but his impact will be far less reaching if those around him don't up their game. Vernon in particular needs to get into the 15+ sack range this year, and make an impact in the running game with Suh taking up bodies. Also, whichever journeyman scrub we have at MLB (assuming the Dolphins don't draft one early) will really need to benefit from this and make some plays.
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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by white1 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:17 am

From what I have read, Philbin absolutely loves Koa Misi. Very little chance he is not our starter at MLB. I'm totally fine with Jenkins at one OLB spot (weak side I think), assuming the development we saw out of him last year continues. At SLB is where we need some big improvement.

From what I saw of McCain, I'd take him off the leash and see for myself if his impact plays outweigh any negatives from him in coverage, or with any mental mistakes. I may mix him in with Dion Jordan at this spot since Jordan has proven he can cover WRs and TEs.

Other than that, draft a guy late and see if he can win a spot in camp.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:22 am

Degarmo wrote:While I like having Suh, I think he's the kind of signing a team that's ready to make their move signs, and not a team that has half a dozen starter needs.

His value will come in freeing up others from double teams, and that's it.  If those guys can't produce, it'll just be a bunch of money in the toilet.  Not that Suh won't have a good year, but his impact will be far less reaching if those around him don't up their game.  Vernon in particular needs to get into the 15+ sack range this year, and make an impact in the running game with Suh taking up bodies.  Also, whichever journeyman scrub we have at MLB (assuming the Dolphins don't draft one early) will really need to benefit from this and make some plays.

One of the scary things to consider is that both Wake and especially Vernon saw a lot of 1-on-1 matchups last season, especially late, and neither one really showed an ability to consistently win those battles. In the final 8 games of the season, Vernon had just 2 sacks; Wake had 5 total sacks in that stretch, but had 0 sacks in 5 of the final 8 games. Is Suh enough to make those numbers better? Maybe, but I'll need to see it before I am convinced.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:30 am

From what I have read, Philbin absolutely loves Koa Misi.  Very little chance he is not our starter at MLB.  

Yeah, seems like all the coaches love Misi. I think Philbin loves him because he shows up to work and keep his mouth shut. Unfortunately, he's very mediocre and is always banged up. I think it would be a colossal mistake to keep him at MLB.

I'm totally fine with Jenkins at one OLB spot (weak side I think), assuming the development we saw out of him last year continues.  At SLB is where we need some big improvement.
 

I'm fine with Jenkins too, although I don't like him nearly as much as a lot of Dolfans seem to. But yeah, the other OLB spot is a huge, gaping hole if Misi stays inside.


From what I saw of McCain, I'd take him off the leash and see for myself if his impact plays outweigh any negatives from him in coverage, or with any mental mistakes. I may mix him in with Dion Jordan at this spot since Jordan has proven he can cover WRs and TEs.

I think of McCain as a DE. a 6'5", 250 pound LB in a 4-3 seems like a bad match. In a 3-4, hell yeah - love the idea of McCain as an OLB...just not sure he makes sense in a 4-3. The other thing with McCain is, he only played 48 snaps on defense as a rookie and really did nothing except for the one sack against New England - so I'm not sure what to make of him yet.

As for Jordan, I think he's a waste of a roster spot, but it seems like the coaches are going to keep him at DE.


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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by white1 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:34 am

JMP wrote:Yeah, seems like all the coaches love Misi. I think Philbin loves him because he shows up to work and keep his mouth shut. Unfortunately, he's very mediocre and is always banged up. I think it would be a colossal mistake to keep him at MLB.

My theory too LOL!

Never did I think a MLB would make me pine for the days of Karlos Dansby. Wow.

Btw, is something wrong with our LB coaching staff? Or Coyle in general when it comes to linebackers? This has probably been covered ad nauseum, but Dansby had a fine career resurgence after leaving Miami. I think Burnett was legitimately "done". Wheeler and Ellerbe were much better - BEFORE they signed with Miami. What is causing these players to do so much worse here than with other squads?

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by Degarmo on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:12 pm

In general, linebackers are a dying breed right now. The entire position is going to have to go through a metamorphosis to adapt to the offenses in the NFL nowadays, and when they do turn into hybridized safeties, then the running game will re-emerge. As I see it, one idiot's opinion, the LBs are too slow to cover nowadays, regardless of how athletic they are. There is ZERO room for them to be a tenth of a step slow to react, and with all the information a LB (particularly a MLB) has to process in an extremely short period of time, they are behind the 8 ball before the snap due to the way penalties are called now. You can't touch a guy, etc. So, honestly, I expect LB's to get taller and lighter here shortly and become harder hitting safeties that can cover. Right now, however, the prototypical LBs are just not good enough anymore.
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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by finskev on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:55 pm

Getting back to Suh, The Lions Pass Defense was so Brutal that Most Times the Dl didn't stand a Chance to get pressure and he still had 8 sacks.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by Birdmond on Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:10 am

I don't put any stock in what Suh did or didn't do versus the East. There's something wrong in Detroit. Great defense plus very good offense should equal consistent winner. They've got playmakers everywhere yet can't win on a consistent basis.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:13 am

Yep, something is definitely strange with the Lions. They should be one of the NFL's top teams, and they're just not.

That said, I do think it's important to note that even with Suh, the Lions have had a very average team overall and have made the playoffs just twice in Suh's 5 seasons. As I said when he signed, as good as Suh is, realistically a defensive tackle isn't going to take your team from "decent" to "great".

Suh is a nice addition, but the Phins' D still looks like Swiss cheese to me.

Ultimately, even with Suh, the Phins will go as far as Tannehill takes them IMO...and he needs to step up in a big way.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by Birdmond on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:52 am

You could make the same argument against Calvin Johnson though. Even though they have one of the all time great playmakers they still don't win. There's something wrong with Detroit.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:00 pm

Birdmond wrote:You could make the same argument against Calvin Johnson though.  Even though they have one of the all time great playmakers they still don't win.  There's something wrong with Detroit.  

Absolutely. But I would argue that a WR can directly impact the outcome of a game to a greater degree than a DT. Either way, I still think it's crazy to build your team around a DT and pay him that much money...and I am a huge Suh fan.

Interestingly, both Johnson and Suh received $60 million guaranteed in their current contracts.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by DolFan 316 on Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:58 pm

You guys should all know how I feel about DTs by now. What good is the best DT in the league when the other team is passing over his head time and time again? Suh didn't do squat a few years back when the Lions were being utterly eviscerated by Drew Brees in the playoffs. The best thing you can say about Suh is that at least he's not just a big blob who just stands there taking up space most of the time. But does that justify his salary? Of course not.

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Re: Suh vs. the AFC East last season

Post by JMP on Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:06 pm

DolFan 316 wrote:You guys should all know how I feel about DTs by now. What good is the best DT in the league when the other team is passing over his head time and time again? Suh didn't do squat a few years back when the Lions were being utterly eviscerated by Drew Brees in the playoffs. The best thing you can say about Suh is that at least he's not just a big blob who just stands there taking up space most of the time. But does that justify his salary? Of course not.

Yeah, I tend to agree. As a Dolfan it's cool to say "We have the best DT in the league!"...but if it doesn't translate to not just postseason appearances but postseason wins, then what's the point?

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