I Have Done A Comparison..

Of all O-linemen the Fins have drafted since 2010, sorted by weighed Approximate Value...

https://stathead.com/football/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&order_by_asc=0&order_by=career_av&draft_year_min=2010&draft_year_max=2021&pick_type=overall&team_id=mia&conference=any&draft_positions%5B%5D=t&draft_positions%5B%5D=g&draft_positions%5B%5D=c&show=all

And compared it to all O-linemen the Packers have drafted in the same time frame.

https://stathead.com/football/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&order_by_asc=0&order_by=career_av&draft_year_min=2010&draft_year_max=2021&pick_type=overall&team_id=gnb&conference=any&draft_positions%5B%5D=t&draft_positions%5B%5D=g&draft_positions%5B%5D=c&show=all

The Fins' best O-lineman (Mike Pouncey) would come in 4th on the Packers' list--behind 4th rounder David Bakhtiari, 5th rounder Corey Linsley, and Bryan Bulaga.

The Fins' 3rd best O-lineman is Tunsil, who'd come in 6th on the Packers' list.  

But what really clinches it for the pack is that 1.) Billy Turner went from not even worthy of being on an NFL roster in Miami to a starter for them and 2.) a lot of DolFans right now really would like former Packers draftee J.C. Tretter (another 4th rounder) to be signed at center.  

But hey, I'm sure the Packers have no idea how to draft and develop O-lineman nearly as well as THIS team, and that's why they stupidly picked Tom who clearly isn't Fins material. Right?      

I will never argue against the Phins drafting poorly...

But...

I think the whole Billy Turner situation shows you the value of COACHING. Turner in Miami with crappy-arse coaching and development stinks, but is a serviceable OT in GB.

Let's hope the Phins now have some good Coaching and development skills on their staff. Who knows? They may even be able to turn Jackson and Kindley and Dieter into serviceable O-linemen?

Maybe? Stranger things have happened, right?

finfanatic wrote:

I will never argue against the Phins drafting poorly...

But...

I think the whole Billy Turner situation shows you the value of COACHING.  Turner in Miami with crappy-arse coaching and development stinks, but is a serviceable OT in GB.

Let's hope the Phins now have some good Coaching and development skills on their staff. Who knows? They may even be able to turn Jackson and Kindley and Dieter into serviceable O-linemen?

Maybe?   Stranger things have happened, right?

But that's my whole point. If the Packers thought Tom was worth drafting at 140, then why didn't Grier think he was worth drafting at 125? I'll trust the judgement of the team that's proven to be better at drafting and developing O-linemen. Something this team has sucked at for over 25 years now.

Grier, on not adding a center: “We do have some competition [within the] offensive line group. Mike is very excited about the group. We were looking at every position. We follow our board. We don’t reach for people.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article260939417.html

i guess they saw Tom as a "reach" in the 4th round.

mercury22nathan wrote:

Grier, on not adding a center: “We do have some competition [within the] offensive line group. Mike is very excited about the group. We were looking at every position. We follow our board. We don’t reach for people.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article260939417.html

i guess they saw Tom as a "reach" in the 4th round.

That's EXACTLY what he said, too!!! And we're supposed to trust the judgment of a GM and scouting staff who can't properly evaluate O-line talent if their lives depended on it? HA!!! Even all the FAs they bring in are duds! That's the real reason they won't be signing Tretter, he's too good a player so by Grier's logic he must actually be awful!

And yes, I know Terron Armstead exists. I also know how injury-prone he is.

It sure is strange how year after year the Fins' "board" constantly has players on it that almost no other team does, or has ranked as high/low. FF sure has Grier pegged all right!

It's also entirely possible that the Dolphins didn't view Tom as a center.

JMP wrote:It's also entirely possible that the Dolphins didn't view Tom as a center.

Not sure why they wouldn't since literally every single scouting report on Tom said he was best suited for center, and they had no problem moving Eichenberg to guard or playing switcheroo with almost every O-lineman last season. And it's not as if Tom would've been any worse at OT than Eichenberg or Jackson anyway--this is the guy who stonewalled the mighty Jermaine Johnson.

DolFan 316 wrote:the mighty Jermaine Johnson.  

One-year wonder Jermaine Johnson, more like it. I do think he's a very good pass rusher, but who knows how he'll do with the Jets - they never seem to rush the QB well no matter who the coaches and players are.

We have a ton of OL on the roster already and will likely add a vet center before camp. Like FF said, assuming we have finally have a legit offensive coaching staff I think we have more than enough to work with at OL. Zach Tom would have been nice, but it's really not that big a deal that we missed out on the 140th player drafted...clearly the NFL didn't think too highly of him. I read somewhere that the Packers are looking at him as an interior backup for now. He's super-athletic but probably too small at this point to be a guard or tackle - they'll need to bulk him up.

JMP wrote:We have a ton of OL on the roster already and will likely add a vet center before camp.

Wil they? We don't know for sure right now. And even if it's true will that vet actually be any good? Because Skura sure wasn't last year.  

Like FF said, assuming we have finally have a legit offensive coaching staff I think we have more than enough to work with at OL.  Zach Tom would have been nice, but it's really not that big a deal that we missed out on the 140th player drafted...clearly the NFL didn't think too highly of him.  I read somewhere that the Packers are looking at him as an interior backup for now.  He's super-athletic but probably too small at this point to be a guard or tackle - they'll need to bulk him up.

Diesch is universally considered too small and weak to play OT right now without further development, which is why he went undrafted, and that didn't stop you from praising him. If by your logic Tom is no good because he's undersized and fell to 140 what does that make Diesch?  

Also (I meant to say this before) the current Fins center wasn't a center when Grier drafted him, so they have no problem moving non-centers there obviously.

Also, the logic behind the Parker trade was supposedly that the WR room was too crowded and there was no longer a need for him. So now suddenly there was a need to draft someone?  

[quote="DolFan 316"]

JMP wrote:We have a ton of OL on the roster already and will likely add a vet center before camp.

316 wrote:Will they? We don't know for sure right now. And even if it's true will that vet actually be any good? Because Skura sure wasn't last year.  

Anything concerning last year's OL needs to be buried and forgotten. That was a disaster on so many levels. But now, we have an OL coach that ran a very strong OL at BC, we have a well-regarded OC that has an OL background, we have an excellent QB coach, and we have other proven quality offensive coaches. Not to mention a head coach that knows what good OL looks like. We are now in a position to actually develop young talent - something that was simply impossible last season. Will it work? Who knows? But I do know that it is an infinitely better position than we were in last season.

316 wrote:
Diesch is universally considered too small and weak to play OT right now without further development, which is why he went undrafted, and that didn't stop you from praising him. If by your logic Tom is no good because he's undersized and fell to 140 what does that make Diesch?  

I'm not saying Tom is no good - I'm saying that at this stage he is too small to be a tackle or guard. I think he's a center-only. Based on that, it is fair to say that the Dolphins didn't believe he would win the starting center job, and it is also fair to say that they see more upside in the WR they drafted than they do in Tom. I liked Zach Tom a lot - but I see no reason to complain that we didn't draft a backup center in round 4.

316 wrote:Also (I meant to say this before) the current Fins center wasn't a center when Grier drafted him, so they have no problem moving non-centers there obviously.

At Wisconsin, Deiter started 16 games at center (plus 14 at LT and 24 at LG).

Also, the logic behind the Parker trade as supposedly that the WR room was too crowded and there was no longer a need for him. So now suddenly there was a need to draft someone?  

I think the biggest reason for the trade was that Parker was earning almost $10 million to be the team's #4 WR. It's not that we had too many receivers - it's that there wasn't a place for Parker at that salary.

Personally, I'll take a potential big play receiver over a potential backup center any day.

All of what you wrote is nice, but what if Dieter gets hurt? You know, like he did last season? Who plays center then?

Saying Tom's center-only so that means he's not good enough to start at center is...well, it's something

Nice dodge on why Tom being small is bad, but Diesch being undersized isn't. If the coaches we have now can develop Diesch into somebody then wouldn't it follow they could've also developed Tom into a good player as well?

As far as the Ezukanma pick is concerned Grier and McDaniel admitted that there was at least one RB on Day 2 they really wanted. So if that RB is there at 125 then Ezukanma likely isn't picked but now we're supposed to pretend he's the guy they wanted and targeted all along? Okay

DolFan 316 wrote:All of what you wrote is nice, but what if Dieter gets hurt? You know, like he did last season? Who plays center then?

Saying Tom's center-only so that means he's not good enough to start at center is...well, it's something

Nice dodge on why Tom being small is bad, but Diesch being undersized isn't. If the coaches we have now can develop Diesch into somebody then wouldn't it follow they could've also developed Tom into a good player as well?

As far as the Ezukanma pick is concerned Grier and McDaniel admitted that there was at least one RB on Day 2 they really wanted. So if that RB is there at 125 then Ezukanma likely isn't picked but now we're supposed to pretend he's the guy they wanted and targeted all along? Okay

The OL isn't finished yet, so we'll have to see who the backup center is. We signed an undrafted FA and we'll likely add a vet as well. Your back-up center better damn well play more than just center, otherwise it's a wasted roster spot. Right now, at just 307 pounds Tom is too small to play guard or tackle - that's just the way it is.

I didn't say anything about Diesch's size. He is absolutely undersized and needs to get stronger - that's why he wasn't drafted. But I think his skillset is perfect for this offense, and at 6'7" he has the frame to get much bigger. He's not challenging for a starting job anytime soon, but there's a lot to work with. All those things can be said of Zach Tom as well (other than being 6'7" LOL) - the biggest difference is, Tom was drafted in the 4th round. If I have a chance to draft a WR that's actually going to play vs. a lineman that isn't...well, I'm taking the receiver.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the RB vs. Ezukanma comment. As you are well aware, teams have players slotted into spots - when one guy gets drafted, everyone else moves up the list. The fact that the Phins might have drafted Zamir White instead of Ezukanma is irrelevant - White was not available to them. It doesn't mean they didn't like Ezukanma - it only means White was rated higher on their chart. But it is pretty clear that the Phins were high on Ezukanma and had targeted him, even going so far as to give him a private workout. It's also clear that they had Ezukanma ranked above Zach Tom.

JMP wrote:The OL isn't finished yet, so we'll have to see who the backup center is.  We signed an undrafted FA and we'll likely add a vet as well.  Your back-up center better damn well play more than just center, otherwise it's a wasted roster spot.  Right now, at just 307 pounds Tom is too small to play guard or tackle - that's just the way it is.

Tom's at least as heavy as Diesch if not more so. I heard Diesch played last season at 290

I didn't say anything about Diesch's size.  He is absolutely undersized and needs to get stronger - that's why he wasn't drafted.  But I think his skillset is perfect for this offense, and at 6'7" he has the frame to get much bigger.  He's not challenging for  a starting job anytime soon, but there's a lot to work with.  All those things can be said of Zach Tom as well (other than being 6'7" LOL) - the biggest difference is, Tom was drafted in the 4th round.  If I have a chance to draft a WR that's actually going to play vs. a lineman that isn't...well, I'm taking the receiver.

Again, how do you know Tom's not good enough to beat out Dieter for the starting job when minicamp hasn't even started yet? Why do you think Diesch will be good when you admit he's undersized and lacks NFL strength? The only reason I can see is this belief that Diesch being on this team mans he'll get better coaching than he would have on any other team, which 1. I find *highly* dubious and 2. if true would mean that Tom would've also gotten that kind of coaching had he been drafted here. Also, center was the #1 need on this team. Tom would've gotten playing time.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the RB vs. Ezukanma comment.  As you are well aware, teams have players slotted into spots - when one guy gets drafted, everyone else moves up the list.  The fact that the Phins might have drafted Zamir White instead of Ezukanma is irrelevant - White was not available to them.  It doesn't mean they didn't like Ezukanma - it only means White was rated higher on their chart.  But it is pretty clear that the Phins were high on Ezukanma and had targeted him, even going so far as to give him a private workout.  It's also clear that they had Ezukanma ranked above Zach Tom.

My point is, if Zamir White is available then he's the guy they draft and you're not saying a word about playmaking WRs because at that point it wouldn't even be a thought in your mind.

If you want to believe that all these players will be good just because they're Dolphins now more power to you. I guess I've just been conditioned by decades of evidence to the contrary that this likely won't be the case. All I ask is that you at least let camp play out before you pronounce Diesch and Ezukanma as future stars in the making. I'll do the same about them not amounting to anything. Deal?

Well at this point all we can do is wait and see. I think Diesch is an ideal zone-blocking RT that needs to develop, you think missing out on Zach Tom is akin to missing out on Brees, Rodgers and Ryan. Let's leave it at that.

Deiter is the Dolphins' starting center. If they thought Tom would legitimately give him a run for his money, maybe they would have drafted him. They didn't.

You're right - if Zamir White was drafted I wouldn't have talked about WR - what would be the point? We had several needs - RB and WR among them. We only had two "good" picks (a 3rd and 4th), so we couldn't possibly address everything. We used those two picks on guys that will potentially play a big role from day 1 - and used the two 7ths on developmental prospects at key positions. With what we had to work with, I'm very satisfied with that. I also would have been satisfied if we drafted RB, OL, DL, CB, etc. instead of WR - if I felt those players made sense. I don't get locked into a "we must draft player X or position X, or the draft will be a disaster" mindset - it simply doesn't make sense to me to think that way.

I NEVER believe a pick will be good simply because the Dolphins drafted them. What I am doing, and have always done, is research the players that were actually picked to see how they fit in. If I see the fit, I'll talk about it. If I don't see the fit, I'll talk about that too. I call it like I see it - always have, always will.

I've killed the Dolphins many times over the years for wasted picks - Cornell Armstrong and Quentin Polling come immediately to mind. But the past few years, I've seen the logic behind almost every pick we've made. Now, a lot of those picks don't work out - the draft is a crapshoot, after all, and the fact is the vast majority of picks will fail. But what I want to see is the team selecting players that actually make sense and fit what they are trying to accomplish. I think they did just that over the weekend.

in the end, for what ever reason, the Phins had Ezukanma rated higher on their draft board than Tom. whether that turns out to be the correct assessment or not - only time will tell.

but now it is up to the Phins to maximize his development and that must start with working on his hands...

“Wideout Erik Ezukanma (125) is 6-foot-2, but he dropped way too many passes when I watched his film."

Ezukanma, incidentally, dropped four passes last season, according to Pro Football Focus.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article260861137.html

from what i've seen, Ezukanma seems to make contested catches, but sometimes loses focus on some of the more routine passes. incidentally, the guy he's slated to replace, Preston Williams, has had the same issue. but perhaps Ezukanma can provide some ST value whereas Williams provides none.

It's funny how everyone sees things differently. I've seen a couple of sources that praised Ezukanma for his excellent hands, and have also seen some that said his hands need work. I guess we'll find out soon enough! LOL

But yeah, the bottom line with the 4 picks and multiple UDFAs is DEVELOPMENT. It seems like we finally have an offensive staff that is competent and committed to developing young players. We'll see how it plays out, but I honestly can't remember the last time we had an offensive staff of this caliber and with a positive, forward-thinking mindset. We've done a good job of developing defense, now it's time to give the offense a boost.

relevant to all this OL talk.

DolFan 316 wrote:Also (I meant to say this before) the current Fins center wasn't a center when Grier drafted him, so they have no problem moving non-centers there obviously.

And that is what they are currently doing…

Well-regarded left guard Connor Williams, the free agent addition from the Dallas Cowboys, has been splitting his time between guard and center during the team’s offseason program and is now viewed as an option to play center if the team chooses to go in that direction, according to multiple sources.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article261029067.html

Whether any of this shuffling would be necessary had Tom been drafted is debatable, but let’s just hope this new staff has the ability to identify talent and put them in the right place…

Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel, offensive coordinator Frank Smith and offensive line coach Matt Applebaum are experimenting with offensive linemen at different positions, and decisions might not be made until training camp or after multiple preseason games.

The Dolphins don’t have a single veteran player on their roster who began their NFL career as a center, but they have multiple players who have experience at the position and can handle the job capably.

If the Dolphins start Deiter or a player who’s not yet on the team at center, the rest of the line likely would include Terron Armstead at left tackle, Williams at left guard, Robert Hunt at right guard and likely Austin Jackson or Liam Eichenberg at right tackle.

As reported weeks ago, the Dolphins believe Jackson — a former starter at left tackle and left guard — and can be a productive right tackle. He has been working at right tackle in the offseason program.

If the Dolphins move Williams to center, then the line could feature Armstead at left tackle, Hunt at right guard, Eichenberg or perhaps Solomon Kindley at left guard and Jackson or Eichenberg at right tackle.

The Dolphins have the option of moving Hunt from right guard to right tackle, but the team likes how he played at right guard last season and he seems more likely than not to stay at that spot.

SO...in other words this staff is playing hot potato with almost every O-line position just like previous staffs? That...does not inspire any confidence in me that they'll get it right. Definition of insanity and all that.

Actually trusting AUSTIN FUCKING JACKSON to protect Tua's blind side downright horrifies me, and would literally render every single offseason move completely moot.

I'm convinced Grier has ordered this to be so, just to save face for whiffing on Jackson in the first round. BTW Kindley is *completely* unsuited for this new scheme, and won't be on the opening day roster. You saw it here first.

Reading that makes me even MORE sure that passing on Tom was idiotic, imbecilic and incredibly insane!!!

Williams did take practice snaps at center for the Cowboys, and even saw preseason game action at center. At the time, coach Mike McCarthy said that he believes guards should be cross-trained at center for emergency situations.

I think the Dolphins share that view - my guess is they want to give Williams some center reps just in case. I don't look at this as shuffling the line...I absolutely do not think the plan is to start him at C or even have him backup at C...I think it's just taking a look to see if he is a viable option in an emergency in-game situation.

I actually really like the idea of trying Austin Jackson at RT. He's very athletic and has good footwork, and played well as a rookie at LT. His biggest issues are strength and technique. Hopefully he worked on both this offseason, and the new coaching staff can get him to the next level. He seems like an ideal fit in this scheme, if he can get his act together.

JMP wrote:I actually really like the idea of trying Austin Jackson at RT...

WOW. Just...wow.

There's drinking the kool-aid, and then there's running around buying all the kool-aid within a 100-mile radius so nobody else can have any!

That last post was the single most mind-blowing thing Jmp has ever said in the over 25 years we have been posting together. It may seriously take me the rest of the week to recover from this. That is all.

DolFan 316 wrote:

JMP wrote:I actually really like the idea of trying Austin Jackson at RT...

WOW. Just...wow.

There's drinking the kool-aid, and then there's running around buying all the kool-aid within a 100-mile radius so nobody else can have any!

That last post was the single most mind-blowing thing Jmp has ever said in the over 25 years we have been posting together. It may seriously take me the rest of the week to recover from this. That is all.

It shouldn't surprise you at all - I've been a vocal supporter of Jackson from the moment he was drafted, and I've said about a million times that I thought he had a very good rookie season. Last season he absolutely sucked - just pure trash. But as I've also said a million times, I blame most of the OL woes on the offensive coaching staff (and Flores, who didn't even communicate with the coaches for half the season). I believe we now have an excellent staff in place, and I am excited to see what these coaches can do with talented young players like Jackson and Eich that struggled horribly last season. Maybe they continue to suck...or maybe they develop into quality starters. We'll see.

So, basically, I'm not drinking kool-aid - I'm just following the same exact logic I've used all along. Try to keep up!

Grier has got to go!

It will be interesting to see how RT plays out - we have so many possibilities right now: Jackson, Eich, Robert Jones, Larnel Coleman, Kellen Diesch...should be one of the more interesting camp battles.

And then who backs up Armstead at LT? I imagine a few of those RT candidates will be in the mix at LT as well, plus we still have Greg Little.

UDFA Ty Clary looks like an interesting developmental prospect at center, but that is definitely the one position where we need to bring in a quality veteran to compete with and/or backup Dieter. There are a few vets still available:
--JC Tretter is still out there - if his knees aren't shot, he is clearly best available.
--Matt Paradis is another center I like a lot, but he is coming off a torn ACL. I don't know when he'll be ready, but he could be an interesting late camp add depending on the timetable.
--Nick Martin was a 4-year starter for the Texans before becoming a backup for the Raiders in 2021...he could be an interesting target.
--BJ Finney was a career backup for the Steelers who has started some games. He is an intriguing option to me, but he had a back injury in 2021 so that will need to check out.

I heard Tretter was trying to be a martyr and be the first NFL player to hold out for a fully guaranteed contract upon signing because he thinks he can singlehandedly change the way all NFL player contracts are structured. So screw him and that SJW nonsense. He can go whine about how horrible it is that free speech is allowed on Twitter and how killing babies on demand won't be a thing anymore while he's at it.

That also makes it all the worse that Tom wasn't the pick at 125 but I'll have plenty of time to revisit that issue later.