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The other Fitzpatrick problem

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mercury22nathan
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Post by mercury22nathan Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:15 am

not that this needs to be re-hashed, but damn it, i'm gonna do it anyways. did Flores make a mistake with Minkah Fitzpatrick?

he is having a Pro Bowl season as a safety - the position he was originally drafted to play. our old favorite coach addressed this issue with an eye to his new team's upcoming game against the Steelers...

Gase got fired as head coach of the Dolphins at the end of the year. Fitzpatrick, the Dolphins’ first-round draft pick last year, got traded to the Steelers this year. Fitzpatrick has played a big role in the Steelers’ turnaround after an ugly 0-3 start, and Gase says what the Steelers have Fitzpatrick doing now is exactly what the Dolphins envisioned when they drafted him.

“He’s playing a different spot. He’s playing the spot he was drafted for,” Gase said.

Gase said that the Dolphins forced Fitzpatrick to play positions outside his comfort zone, and although Fitzpatrick did his best, it’s clear that the Steelers are putting him in a better position.

“We had a lot of injuries, so he had to play nickel and corner, never got to post safety until the end of the year,” Gase said. “They have him in the post, allow him to be aggressive, and he’s done that. The ball finds him.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/12/18/adam-gase-says-steelers-have-minkah-fitzpatrick-playing-in-the-right-spot/

and then you know what happened this year.

The fact is the Dolphins didn’t have to trade Fitzpatrick. The team could have decided to stick him at free safety — much the same way the Steelers did — and the result could have been having a Pro Bowl talent on the team.

But Flores and his coaching staff wanted Fitzpatrick to play several positions. Something the player didn’t wish to do. So that led to Fitzpatrick requesting, and getting, a trade.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article238499438.html

i know, i know, the argument is that Fitzpatrick was a cry baby for not wanting to move around like is required by the coaching staff's scheme. so was Flores so inflexible with his scheme demands, that he overlooked the fact that he had a pro bowl talent on his team, if only he had used him correctly? i'm all for scheme flexibility - although it doesn't seem to have worked real well this year. but that's more about lack of talent...you know, the talent they lack because it was traded away to Pittsburgh - see how circular this is. but here's my big question: if this scheme requires position flexibility, then how come when McCain and Jones were on the field, they played safety and nothing but safety? why didn't they have to move around too? McCain played safety (and not that great either) and nothing but safety. could not Fitzpatrick have done that?

so in the end, Flores decided McCain was a better safety than Fitzpatrick. i think Flores has gotten a lot of things right this year, but i think he got this one very wrong.

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Post by DolFan 316 Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:17 am

Agreed. Flores botched this big-time. But TBH only one real botch is great for a first time head coach and especially a coach on this team, and he's clearly improved as a coach already since then.

It does raise the issue though of how much trading is too much when you're giving away the very same young players you're claiming to want to rebuild with? At some point there's going to be diminishing returns.

IMO modern coaches must be as flexible as they demand from their players. We see it time and time again, coaches insisting that everybody adhere to a "system" and refusing to change, and then being fired after 1-3 years, only to be replaced by other coaches doing the same thing.

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Post by JMP Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:28 am

Minkah Fitzpatrick was a whiny little bitch who hid behind his mommy. He didn't want to do what the coaches asked and he didn't want to be part of what the Dolphins are building. Fuck 'im. Buy in or get out.

merc wrote:Flores decided McCain was a better safety than Fitzpatrick.

Or, he decided to go with the team player that was voted as a captain by his peers, and dump the crybaby that was becoming a cancer. It's not always about who the better player is.

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Post by JMP Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:40 am

DolFan 316 wrote:

IMO modern coaches must be as flexible as they demand from their players. We see it time and time again, coaches insisting that everybody adhere to a "system" and refusing to change, and then being fired after 1-3 years, only to be replaced by other coaches doing the same thing.

You have to have some kind of system in place...you can't just have players doing whatever they want.

Bottom line: Minkah is getting paid a small fortune to do a job, and he didn't want to do it. He demanded a trade, and the Dolphins granted his wish. End of story.

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Post by JMP Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:48 am

BTW - the Dolphins have tons of players on defense that play multiple positions, and I don't hear any of them (or their mothers) complaining. Some players are tough and can handle whatever comes at them and are willing to do whatever helps the team. Others, like Minkah, are weak and selfish.

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Post by Degarmo Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:32 pm

I think Minkah actually knew his value and that it was costing him millions of future dollars to be wasted being here.  He could be an average positional fill-in player, or he could be an outstanding free safety.

They missed here.  He was a free safety.  It's a short career, and when you're being misused by a team that has shown you nothing in the way of competence, it makes sense to get the fuck out.

We should have kept him and let him play his natural position, which he is far better at than anyone we have on the roster.  

We still don't have a real ballhawk free safety, and it's another hole to fill.  

The Dolphins also have tons of players that are willing to do anything, because the roster is filled with guys that are bubble players and they're desperate.

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Post by mercury22nathan Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:24 am

Then we have Bobby McCain, who was playing out of position. This troubles because it speaks to a coaching problem.

The Dolphins coaching staff, you see, looked at the roster and realized they needed a good communicator in the back end to keep receivers from blowing the top off the defense as they had done so often in 2018 and ‘17.

There were simply too many busts on the back end and so finding no safety with the communication skills and leadership and intelligence they could identify for the job, the coaching staff picked a nickel cornerback to do the work.

Now understand, McCain in June 2018 was signed by an administration that included general manager Chris Grier to a four-year, $27 million deal that rewarded McCain for good work at his nickel position and made him one of the highest paid nickel corners in the league.

And within a year, an administration headed by general manager Chris Grier (same person) moved McCain to free safety.

And why do I tell you McCain is out of position? Because while his communication is indeed excellent, McCain is not a great open field tackler, which is a requirement for free safeties.

And McCain is generally undersized as a free safety. And do you know what happens to undersized free safeties? They get injured. And it’s often a neck or shoulder injuries.

McCain’s shoulder was messed up by the second week of the season. And he plugged along and toughed it out. But by November no amount of toughness could save the season for McCain and he went on injured reserve and required shoulder surgery.

Word to the wise: Bobby McCain is not a free safety, y’all.

He’s a nickel cornerback.

And this only adds to those doubts: Minkah Fitzpatrick playing at strong safety.

I’m shaking my head because the Dolphins defensive staff -- and head coach Brian Flores, I presume -- looked at nickel corner McCain and saw a free safety and nickel corner Fitzpatrick and saw a strong safety.

And both views were wrong.

So Fitzpatrick freaks out about playing strong safety while weighing a-buck-98 and decides to gain weight. Then the staff tells him he’s not always going to at strong safety and he’s not always going to be in the lineup and he’s not always going to play a ton. And the guy freaks out.

And wants out.

And, amazingly, gets his wish.

One year after being the No. 11 overall pick of the 2018 draft.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article238576633.html

i just don't see how moving McCain from the slot to FS and then telling Minkah he's not gonna play much was the right move? the results are the proof. McCain didn't play or tackle particularly well (after playing pretty decent in the slot) and Minkah is a pro-bowler at FS. Flores got this wrong.

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Post by JMP Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:48 am

Before Minkah was drafted, he himself talked about how versatile he was and how he could (and did) play multiple positions. The Dolphins pointed to his versatility as a reason they drafted him. Then he comes to Miami and him and his mommy decides he's a free safety only? Again, if you don't buy in, we don't need you. Move on.

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Post by JMP Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:38 am

And let's not forget...Minkah wasn't exactly a great player with the Dolphins. In fact, I'd label him average at best. He missed a ton of tackles (and still does with the Steelers), took bad angles and just generally was very mediocre. He wasn't sniffing a Pro Bowl here. Sure, he has 5 INTs this season...but how much of that is due to the fact that he is playing on an established strong defense?

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Post by JMP Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:16 am

I just read that Armando article. As usual with him, it is overly simplistic and loaded with things that just don't make sense. For example, does he really think Grier should have told Flores how to use Minkah? Come on, man...this isn't Jerry Jones. The GM should NEVER tell the coach how to utilize his players and where to play them. That's not the GM's job, nor should it be. And he says "McCain is not a great open field tackler, which is a requirement for free safeties." Does he realize that Fitzpatrick is also not a great open field tackler, or is he just choosing to ignore that because it doesn't fit his narrative?

The bottom line here is this: it doesn't really matter how good or bad Fitzpatrick is, the fact is he did not want to be part of this team and requested a trade, and the Dolphins granted his wish and got top value in return. Fitzpatrick and his mommy were becoming a cancer, and that's the last thing a new coach needs when he is trying to build a culture. And let's not kid ourselves...this was going to be a bad defense with or without Minkah Fitzpatrick. So we dumped a guy that didn't want to be here and got back a valuable pick that could hopefully turn into a cornerstone player.


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Post by Umix10 Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:58 pm

Minkah was a biproduct of the mommy complex. He was coddled at Bama and coddled at home. Obviously this regime is not coaching like that. This team kinda reminds me of a collegiate type of staff, meaning they are about discipline from top to bottom. This works this year, because we are at a serious void of egos and/or talent.

Flores has done a "MASTERFUL" job of literally coaching "scabs". But, will he bend or adjust when he gets serious talent and a lot more attitude? I've said this is a previous thread but I'm not sold on Flores just yet. The hardest part was dumping contracts and getting the cap under control, and the front office deserves its due. Nothing to do with coaching. As a matter of fact, the F/O made it easier for him to lose and lower expectations.

To his credit, he's a lot more aggressive in game than coaches past but again, he's got nothing to lose "THIS YEAR"
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Post by Degarmo Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:10 pm

Here's the rub.

If Minkah is a guy with Mommy problems and we don't want him around, then do we need a guy with Daddy problems and a history of major injury?

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Post by JMP Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:12 am

It's a great point, and really my only issue with Tua aside from the hip. Will NFL Tua man up and run his own life, or will he continue to do whatever Daddy says? That's something teams will need to determine in interviews.

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Post by JMP Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:20 am

Umix10 wrote:Minkah was a biproduct of the mommy complex. He was coddled at Bama and coddled at home. Obviously this regime is not coaching like that. This team kinda reminds me of a collegiate type of staff, meaning they are about discipline from top to bottom. This works this year, because we are at a serious void of egos and/or talent.

Flores has done a "MASTERFUL" job of literally coaching "scabs". But, will he bend or adjust when he gets serious talent and a lot more attitude? I've said this is a previous thread but I'm not sold on Flores just yet. The hardest part was dumping contracts and getting the cap under control, and the front office deserves its due. Nothing to do with coaching. As a matter of fact, the F/O made it easier for him to lose and lower expectations.

To his credit, he's a lot more aggressive in game than coaches past but again, he's got nothing to lose "THIS YEAR"

I think the Flores we see now is the Flores we'll see 5 years from now. Sure, he'll grow as a coach, but I think he's always going to be an aggressive coach that relies on matchups and game planning to his opponent. His hands are tied this year, but I think it's clear that he has a plan and he'll stick with it. To me, he seems like the most Belichickian of all the coaches on the Belichick tree. Get him some talent, and he will win.

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Post by finfanatic Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:03 am

I said it early on and I think it is being proven true; If M. Fitzpatrick is not a perennial pro-bowler it is because the coaching staff is using him wrong.

And you can call Fitzpatrick a crybaby whiner whatever, but just how smart is a Coaching staff that decides to use a player who is potentially a Pro Bowl Free Safety, at other positions because "SYSTEM" or whatever?

Gotta hand it to Flores though, he stuck to his guns and really sold the message "We only want the players who WANT to be here." And that is good coaching, but... I cannot help but think a Flores with several years HCing experience would have found a way to make Fitzpatrick "buy in". Or at least I am hoping he would/will.

And...The Phins were in the "jettison" mode, so...

I am not gonna hold these first year "faux pas" against Flores. If he keeps booting talented players because they don't buy in though....
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Post by JMP Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:34 pm

finfanatic wrote:I said it early on and I think it is being proven true; If M. Fitzpatrick is not a perennial pro-bowler it is because the coaching staff is using him wrong.

And you can call Fitzpatrick a crybaby whiner whatever, but just how smart is a Coaching staff that decides to use a player who is potentially a Pro Bowl Free Safety, at other positions because "SYSTEM" or whatever?

Gotta hand it to Flores though, he stuck to his guns and really sold the message "We only want the players who WANT to be here." And that is good coaching, but... I cannot help but think a Flores with several years HCing experience would have found a way to make Fitzpatrick "buy in". Or at least I am hoping he would/will.

And...The Phins were in the "jettison" mode, so...

I am not gonna hold these first year "faux pas" against Flores. If he keeps booting talented players because they don't buy in though....

Players 'buying in' is the most essential part of coaching. You cannot work with players that don't want to be there - it just doesn't work. Minkah could be the best player ever - but if he doesn't fit what the coaches want to do and doesn't want to be there, nothing is going to make it work. It's not about talent - it's about fit and willingness to do what must be done. At the end of the day, it's the Miami Dolphins - not the Minkah Dolphins. He refused to do his job and demanded a trade, and the Dolphins obliged and got more for him than he was worth at the time. Because I'm telling you right now - Minkah on the Dolphins was a 5th round value. There was nothing special about him with the Dolphins, at all.

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