Tua, the Dolphins, and FA

Agree and I hate it he’s a monster out there. Always always injured such a shame

Here we go again. Tua has 1/3 of his starting receivers this week. Waddle has been the only constant.

How can any team survive when the top players on the team never play. This is definitely no way to evaluate Tua's ability.

Brissett had 3 turnovers against one of the worst defenses in the NFL.

Here we go again. Tua has 1/3 of his starting receivers this week. Waddle has been the only constant.

How can any team survive when the top players on the team never play. This is definitely no way to evaluate Tua's ability.

Brissett had 3 turnovers against one of the worst defenses in the NFL.

I said this somewhere in another thread, but the drop-off from Tua to Brissett is huge.  Yes, the embarrassment yesterday was largely reflective of that drop-off.  And agree - the fact it came against the worse defense in the league just adds to the embarrassment. 

The Grier era needs to end.  He's been here for about 20 years, and has climbed the organization to his current post as GM.  His philosophy stated early on was to start up front in the trenches.  Yet, three years later our offensive line is the worse in the league by a large margin.  Also, how can you say that then immediately trade your franchise LT? We all loved the trade at the time, but looking at the players acquired with those draft picks... it's clearly been a mistake.  Yet another example of trading away proven talent only to get draft picks in return, and then draft average (or worse) players with those picks. In an effort to replace Tunsil, we've tried several players and spent several picks to get the NEXT franchise LT, and all have failed.  Meanwhile, Davis is as bad as ever at RT with no one coming up to replace him. 

Everything - even Flores - is under his purview.  There can be no argument he has had his shot, and failed.  Ross will most likely want to give him a fourth year.  I would urge him not to do it.  A three year tenure with the team going in the wrong direction.... no outside candidate is going to look at that and say "Gee, Ross should have given him more time!"  Quite the opposite, his patience with failed regimes has been remarkable, and any aspiring GM worth his salt should be salivating at the prospect of 3 full seasons, with an extra first in 2023 and tons of cap room to see what can be done with this roster. 

Coaching is for another time.  I'm focused where this team has had problems for decades, and that's identifying and acquiring talent.  Both free agency and the draft.  There is no question we've been one of the worse teams in the league on hit rate for free agents and draft picks, and the failure to find even one "blue chip" prospect in years is the final straw.  

I don't know why I chose this thread to rail against Grier, but I guess it is part of what I've seen (we've all seen) for years.  He constantly drafts / signs players with a bad track record of injuries, somehow thinking "that won't happen here".  Yet it does, again and again.  Just arrogance.  Somehow thinking other teams don't have good training staffs, nutritionists, sports metric analytics, physical therapy and so on.  Hell, even college teams have all that.  If a guy is prone to injury it's a good predictor it will keep happening.  Pretty simple.  Yet we fall in that trap again, and again, and again. 



We need a clean sweep on the scouting side of the org.  

Do with Flores whatever the new GM wants.  I would be OK if he makes the call to keep him under current contract, recognizing what he did in year 1 and 2.  Flores problem is on offense, the one coordinator he found that did the best job was swept out, or he quit, either way it's telling that he cannot find and retain continuity on offensive coaching staff.  Maybe he gets a shot to fix it, but it's probably a one year audition.

Right on, white!!!

white1 wrote:The Grier era needs to end.  He's been here for about 20 years, and has climbed the organization to his current post as GM.  His philosophy stated early on was to start up front in the trenches.  Yet, three years later our offensive line is the worse in the league by a large margin.  Also, how can you say that then immediately trade your franchise LT? We all loved the trade at the time, but looking at the players acquired with those draft picks... it's clearly been a mistake.  Yet another example of trading away proven talent only to get draft picks in return, and then draft average (or worse) players with those picks. In an effort to replace Tunsil, we've tried several players and spent several picks to get the NEXT franchise LT, and all have failed.  Meanwhile, Davis is as bad as ever at RT with no one coming up to replace him.

I started having severe misgivings about this latest rebuild when Grier started trading away his own draft picks from just a year or two before. Basically the GM responsible for the roster being in such dire shape to begin with was placed in charge of rebuilding it! At this point Grier's been so incompetent, idiotic and imbecilic that I can only conclude he's wrecked this team on purpose for some reason. Nobody could do this bad a job if they were actually trying, right? RIGHT?!?!

Coaching is for another time.  I'm focused where this team has had problems for decades, and that's identifying and acquiring talent.  Both free agency and the draft.  There is no question we've been one of the worse teams in the league on hit rate for free agents and draft picks, and the failure to find even one "blue chip" prospect in years is the final straw.

It's not humanly possible for any of us to have done worse in the first round of the 2020 draft than Grier. Three picks, two players not even good enough to be on an NFL roster and another that apparently the coaches have hated since day one!

We need a clean sweep on the scouting side of the org.

I have been saying this for years if not decades at this point.   

Do with Flores whatever the new GM wants.  I would be OK if he makes the call to keep him under current contract, recognizing what he did in year 1 and 2.  Flores problem is on offense, the one coordinator he found that did the best job was swept out, or he quit, either way it's telling that he cannot find and retain continuity on offensive coaching staff.  Maybe he gets a shot to fix it, but it's probably a one year audition.

Right now I'm leaning towards throwing Flores and this staff out with the rest. It's become painfully obvious that no half decent offensive coach will ever want to work with or for him. On the job trainees will be the best he can do. And besides, we need to replace the GM and coach in the same offseason, which this team keeps refusing to do.

Grier plusses: Better at getting value back in trades than average. Salary cap is in good shape.

Minuses: Actually making those draft picks after acquiring them. The Tunsil trade should have been the springboard for a legitimate playoff contender by now. And Fitzpatrick for what turned out to be Austin Jackson looks downright embarrassing now, regardless of circumstances.

Sad to say, but Ireland and Hickey were both better at actually making the picks as it turns out.

Grier gotta go. And the new GM needs to pick the coach.

The sad part of the whole Grier mess is that I honestly think he's had good drafts since he was paired with Flores.  The players he selected all fit what the Dolphins - theoretically - want to do.  The problem is, the coaching staff has been unable to develop the majority of these players.  When you have tons of staff turnover every year, and now a staff loaded with inexperienced coaches (many that have never coached their respective positions before), it is really difficult to 'coach up' players.  These guys are having to learn on the job - there's no time for player development.  It's a total clusterfuck.

BTW - I don't mean to imply that I'm letting Grier off the hook - not at all. I'm totally fine if he's fired. I just think that many of the players he's selected have gotten a raw deal from the coaching staff.

Gotta disagree about that. The Iggy pick made no sense at the time and I said so. The Long pick made no sense at the time and I said so. I also said it made no sense to wait until the 7th round yet again to pick a RB--who's not even on the roster right now. I came away from the last two drafts pissed off, and now everybody can see why.

Even last season when this team apparently had much better coaches, none of the players except Howard were anything more than average at best, and quite a few weren't even that. This is a talent issue first and foremost. I'm not completely absolving the coaches of any blame, they have their fair share, but no matter how you want to analyze this all this team's problems can be traced back to one common source--Chris Grier. He's the only person who's been around for every single one of the struggles.

DolFan 316 wrote:Gotta disagree about that. The Iggy pick made no sense at the time and I said so. The Long pick made no sense at the time and I said so. I also said it made no sense to wait until the 7th round yet again to pick a RB--who's not even on the roster right now. I came away from the last two drafts pissed off, and now everybody can see why.

Iggy DID make sense...he was young and raw, but a top cover corner that fit exactly what the Dolphins do on defense. Unfortunately, he has proven to be somewhat immature and a slow learner. But at the back-end of round one, those are the types of picks that teams make - you draft a guy that fits the scheme that you hope you can mold. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out - it happens.

Long was one of the top receiving TEs in his class, and also an above average blocker. In theory, he would have been the only complete TE on the Dolphins roster. Unfortunately, he can't get on the field because he isn't yet good enough to crack the top 3 at the position. I'd blame some of that on coaching...the lead TE coach is Godsey, who is busy running the offense, and the assistant TE coach has never coached TEs before. For sure, we didn't need a TE - but I understand the logic of taking him.

As for RB...we could have drafted aback for sure. But behind this OL, it would have been an absolutely wasted pick. Until the OL is fixed, it doesn't matter who is running the ball.

DolFan 316 wrote:Even last season when this team apparently had much better coaches, none of the players except Howard were anything more than average at best, and quite a few weren't even that. This is a talent issue first and foremost. I'm not completely absolving the coaches of any blame, they have their fair share, but no matter how you want to analyze this all this team's problems can be traced back to one common source--Chris Grier. He's the only person who's been around for every single one of the struggles.

We had young players developing and showing signs of being at least good last season: Jackson, Kindley, Hunt, Needham, Baker, AVG, Williams, Gaskin, etc. All of those players have regressed this season.

The thing about Grier and the drafts, almost any one of us keyboard warriors would have just as much success with our picks as he's had with his. Like most GM's we would have hits and misses but I believe our picks would be better.

Yes, I'm still bitter about Tua over Hebert. Hebert will get better with time for the reasons I posted prior to the draft. No continuity in college coaching, no quarterback camps, no QB coach. Every thing he did through college was all natural ability. Now he has a QB coach and that will help him fix issues nobody ever worked with him on.

Hebert and Dak Prescott have the same QB coach. Not sure who he is but both players have looked phenomenal at times.

There was a lot to dislike about Herbert in college, and I am not at all upset that we took Tua instead. It was the right pick at the time IMO.

Sure, Herbert has looked great at times - but he's also looked terrible at times. This season, according to many metrics, he was one of the worst QBs in the NFL in weeks 6 and 8. He's just very inconsistent, and I'm not sure that will ever change.

I still believe that Herbert would be mediocre or worse if he was in Tua's situation with the Dolphins - any QB would be. Regardless, Herbert can be a great QB for sure in LA. But so can Tua, in the right situation - and hopefully that's Miami in the near future. It doesn't have to be 'Tua vs. Herbert'...both can be good in their own right.

JMP wrote:There was a lot to dislike about Herbert in college, and I am not at all upset that we took Tua instead. It was the right pick at the time IMO.

Sure, Herbert has looked great at times - but he's also looked terrible at times. This season, according to many metrics, he was one of the worst QBs in the NFL in weeks 6 and 8. He's just very inconsistent, and I'm not sure that will ever change.

I still believe that Herbert would be mediocre or worse if he was in Tua's situation with the Dolphins - any QB would be. Regardless, Herbert can be a great QB for sure in LA. But so can Tua, in the right situation - and hopefully that's Miami in the near future. It doesn't have to be 'Tua vs. Herbert'...both can be good in their own right.

Tua's in one of if not the worst situation in pro football. Completely agree with that. Hopefully we get new coaches and a better GM prior to next season. Some people that know how to build around the talent they have not destroy the person they drafted. Every metric of every player on both sides of the ball has gone down

JMP wrote:It doesn't have to be 'Tua vs. Herbert'...both can be good in their own right.

That's where you're wrong. It must and always will be Tua VS Herbert. Their draft circumstances will forever link them, just as Brees and Culpepper are still linked together in my mind. Just the way it has to be.

CarsonChris wrote:
Tua's in one of if not the worst situation in pro football. Completely agree with that.  Hopefully we get new coaches and a better GM prior to next season. Some people that know how to build around the talent they have not destroy the person they drafted. Every metric of every player on both sides of the ball has gone down

Absolutely. Grier and Flores have completely sabotaged Tua. I don't think it was done on purpose - I think it comes down to sheer incompetence. Things would look a lot better if these clowns were able to assemble a legit NFL-level coaching staff. Even with a less-than-ideal roster, a real coaching staff would easily have us at 5 wins minimum right now, right in the mix for a playoff spot and actually fighting for the division.

JMP wrote:Absolutely.  Grier and Flores have completely sabotaged Tua.  I don't think it was done on purpose - I think it comes down to sheer incompetence.

I guess is Disagreement Day, because I'm doing it again Even those two goofs couldn't have sabotaged Tua any worse if they were actually trying not to. To recap: Flores wanted Herbert, the offense last season was specifically designed for Fitz and didn't even account for Tua being on the team at all seemingly, and then this year they teased a Watson trade for months. There's no doubt in my mind they'd have done it too if not for the whole "being in severe trouble with the law" thing, that the Fins somehow expected to just go away literally overnight. It couldn't be more obvious that somehow, some way, a QB they drafted 5th overall isn't and never was actually wanted on the team This makes JJ going out of his way to sabotage Marino look like an innocent mistake!

There is one thing that might point towards Flores wanting Herbert over Tua--not saying he did, but this is possible support for that theory: the hiring of Gailey to be the OC. I recall reading that Gailey is actually Herbert's godfather, and at the time he was hired, it was very much up in the air whether Tua would even be available for the 2020 season. Herbert would certainly have been the second QB on most boards if Tua's recovery from the hip injury hadn't gone as well as it did, so maybe Flores was planning for Herbert being mentored by Fitzpatrick with both being fits for Gailey.

I think the hiring of Gailey was entirely because of Fitzpatrick. Fitz was expected to be the QB all season, and he had had his most success with Gailey. But Flores flipped the script and completely surprised Tua by making him the starter after Fitz's 3-3 start. That's where things went wrong.

DolFan 316 wrote:

JMP wrote:It doesn't have to be 'Tua vs. Herbert'...both can be good in their own right.

That's where you're wrong. It must and always will be Tua VS Herbert. Their draft circumstances will forever link them, just as Brees and Culpepper are still linked together in my mind. Just the way it has to be.  

Nope, not at all.  At the time nearly everyone had Tua ranked over Herbert.  Things look different now, but that doesn't change perception at that time.  Hindsight is 20-20, as they say.

I still say that if we drafted Herbert we'd all be posting ad nauseum about what a bust he is, and how Grier should be fired for taking him.  Herbert would have been a sitting duck in this garbage offense.