"Fail To Tank" Soured Ross on Flores

OMG.

Just READ this ridiculous theory from PFT.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/11/aborted-tank-in-2019-may-have-soured-stephen-ross-on-brian-flores/?partner=MSN

Here's the pertinent part IMO:

Entering the 2019 season, Ross realized that, sometimes, you’ve got to take your lumps. Although the object of a full-season tank job initially was Tua, Ross pivoted to Burrow. However, after a few ugly losses to begin his tenure, Flores apparently ditched and defied the tanking strategy.

That kept the Dolphins from securing the top pick, which became Burrow. Where would they be now if they had gotten him? They’d probably be in the playoffs, and they’d potentially be the No. 1 seed or close to it.

To quote a humorous TV commercial: That's not how this works. It's not how any of this works.

I have no problem with what Grier and Flores did leading into the 2019 season. The roster was full of overpriced and aging veterans, and was just good enough to hover around .500. It was clear a rebuild was needed, and the correct approach is to dump the overpriced contracts and trade players of value for future draft picks to build a young core. That's exactly what we did.

Coaches and players will NEVER intentionally "tank a season". Yes they were short on talent and the roster was thrown together on the eve of week 1 but over the year they gelled and started getting on the same page. Of course they were going to win some games. In fact, they finished strong going 5-4 over the last nine games. That experience was critical in both Flores establishing his credentials as a coach, and the players buying into the culture he was building.

IF Ross believed the goal was to go 1-15 and get the top pick, no matter how ugly 2019 turned out, he's more clueless than anyone gives him credit for. I can't even believe that's the case.

I don't for one second believe that Grier and Flores collaborated to intentionally lose as many games as possible, only to have Flores "panic" and back out of the plan midway through. What a ridiculous theory.

This article is written solely on the "hot take" that Miami "couldn't even tank properly LOL!" Bullshit. There was never a plan to "tank". The roster was torn down to rebuild, with no illusion of making a playoff run in 2019, but also with the plan of establishing the system, process and procedures to improve the team over time.

Sorry white1, but I have to disagree here.

How much did those late season wins really "build a winning culture" or benefit this team in any way, shape or form? They missed the playoffs the following two seasons and the coach was fired.

And oh BTW despite being the league's most sacked QB, Burrow had the most yards per pass and was second in passer rating. And got the previously bumbling, bungling Bengals to the playoffs.

There is every indication that yes, the Fins really WOULD have been better off tanking. And they would've been better off tanking for Luck too but screwed that up and wound up settling for seven years of Tannehill mediocrity while Luck won 4 playoff games, which is 4 more than the Fins have won in the last 20-plus years.

I will say though that if Ross "soured" on Flores back then, why keep him around for two more seasons? That's the part that doesn't make sense.

And I do thank you for posting the relevant part so I wouldn't have to actually visit that far leftist propaganda site

I agree with white's take. There was nothing wrong with winning games in 2019, and I don't believe there was ever a plan to tank.

I'd also argue that Burrow would have been a very different QB in Miami, with no OL, no running game, no WRs and a garbage coaching staff. Any QB would fail in those conditions.

And BTW, Burrow and the Bengals won just one more game than the Dolphins this season.

JMP wrote:I agree with white's take.  There was nothing wrong with winning games in 2019, and I don't believe there was ever a plan to tank.

Oh, there was a plan to tank. You don't get rid of guys like Minkah mid-season and players you just drafted 2 years ago if you're not planning to tank. It's just that when the Fins do it, they're always too obvious about it and then decide NOT to tank when their obvious tanking gets called out.

I'd also argue that Burrow would have been a very different QB in Miami, with no OL, no running game, no WRs and a garbage coaching staff.  Any QB would fail in those conditions.

Again, he was the league's most sacked QB and STILL outperformed Tua significantly. What exactly would've changed had Burrow been a Fin? Besides Flores actually wanting him and not treating him like garbage and giving him actual support?

And BTW, Burrow and the Bengals won just one more game than the Dolphins this season.

Only because they tanked the meaningless finale. And think about what you just said. The team that successfully tanked for Burrow just outdid the team that failed to do so just 2 seasons later. Doesn't exactly win your anti-tanking argument Also, if you hadn't noticed the media never called the Bengals on this and never will.

Sorry Jmp, but I have to disagree here.

Hey, JMP? This is MY POST

How much did those late season wins really "build a winning culture" or benefit this team in any way, shape or form? They missed the playoffs the following two seasons and the coach was fired.

It's a valid point and here's my counter.

The players DID buy into what Flores was preaching, evidenced not only by their strong finish in 2019 but the 10 win season after that. The playoffs are a nice goal but also conference-dependent. Our record in both years gets us into the NFC playoffs. I'll just stick to winning - and we established a team and culture that had winning seasons back-to-back for the first time in 20 years. In my book that counts as a success.

Clearly, Flores was fired not because of his results on the field, as odd as it is to realize that. His relationship with Grier (at the least) was broken. Also, he wanted more power - contractually - to have final say on draft picks and free agents. Ross said no.

There is every indication that yes, the Fins really WOULD have been better off tanking. And they would've been better off tanking for Luck too but screwed that up and wound up settling for seven years of Tannehill mediocrity while Luck won 4 playoff games, which is 4 more than the Fins have won in the last 20-plus years.

I am not arguing that the team WOULD HAVE been better off if they had the top pick. Namely, if they lost that OT game to Cincy. However, expecting the head coach and his players to INTENTIONALLY LOSE A GAME in order to get a draft pick is not a valid plan in any way, shape or form. The only one I know of for sure is the game that Doug Pederson threw a few seasons ago. And that resulted almost immediately in his firing.

white1 wrote:Hey, JMP? This is MY POST

Yeah yeah...at least I noticed and corrected my mistake. I'm apparently so used to disagreeing with Jmp that I said that out of habit

It's a valid point and here's my counter.

The players DID buy into what Flores was preaching, evidenced not only by their strong finish in 2019 but the 10 win season after that.  The playoffs are a nice goal but also conference-dependent.  Our record in both years gets us into the NFC playoffs.  I'll just stick to winning - and we established a team and culture that had winning seasons back-to-back for the first time in 20 years.  In my book that counts as a success.

Unfortunately the people in charge disagreed. Also unfortunately, missing the playoffs is missing the playoffs. There's no special honor or distinction for being the best loser.  

Clearly, Flores was fired not because of his results on the field, as odd as it is to realize that.  His relationship with Grier (at the least) was broken.  Also, he wanted more power - contractually - to have final say on draft picks and free agents.  Ross said no.

And if Flores really was the one who wanted the Watson trade, Ross had every right to say no. I'm still not completely convinced, though. I just can't get past those pesky media reports of Ross and Grier attempting a desperate, last-minute conversation with Watson, with the only obstacle to a trade right then and there being that a couple of the women wouldn't settle and go away. That doesn't jibe with this sudden "revelation" of Flores being the only one who wanted Watson and trying to bully Ross and Grier into getting him.

I am not arguing that the team WOULD HAVE been better off if they had the top pick.  Namely, if they lost that OT game to Cincy.  However, expecting the head coach and his players to INTENTIONALLY LOSE A GAME in order to get a draft pick is not a valid plan in any way, shape or form.  The only one I know of for sure is the game that Doug Pederson threw a few seasons ago.  And that resulted almost immediately in his firing.

Come on, man. You KNOW coaches have intentionally tanked games and seasons for decades. It's just that the vast majority of them have been a lot slicker and better at doing it. It doesn't even have to come down to intentionally losing, all a team in that situation has to do is what they've always been doing. That's it. Instead of losing on purpose just don't go out of your way to win. And yes, there's a difference.

I could even argue that the Fins would've been better of tanking THIS season after starting 1-7. They missed the playoffs anyway, Flores got fired anyway, the only real objection would've been that Grier was dumb enough to give another team his own first round pick. Which is why he should've been fired too but oh well.

And if Flores really was the one who wanted the Watson trade, Ross had every right to say no. I'm still not completely convinced, though. I just can't get past those pesky media reports of Ross and Grier attempting a desperate, last-minute conversation with Watson, with the only obstacle to a trade right then and there being that a couple of the women wouldn't settle and go away. That doesn't jibe with this sudden "revelation" of Flores being the only one who wanted Watson and trying to bully Ross and Grier into getting him.

Yeah, this one is really interesting. I forget who wrote the article, but the story I read is Grier and Flores were ready to trade for Watson, EVEN WITH THE LEGAL issues unsolved. IT WAS ROSS that intervened, said no, and even took the step of talking to Watson in order to make that clear. In other words, the message was "settle these cases and we will trade for you."

Mind boggling stuff. And so glad it DID NOT happen, however it really transpired or if all of this is true.

They missed the playoffs anyway, Flores got fired anyway, the only real objection would've been that Grier was dumb enough to give another team his own first round pick. Which is why he should've been fired too but oh well.

Totally agree. It's actually the biggest problem I have with the current state of the team, and I still hold out a glimmer of hope that Grier will be shown the door before we hire our new head coach. It took the Giants a full day or two to axe Judge, maybe the Fins too come to their senses here.

The case for firing Grier could be made for a number of reasons, I'll give it a shot:

1. A poor relationship that fully broke in 2021. Grier is the GM. HE HIRED Flores as head coach. He is just as responsible for the relationship as Flores is responsible for the relationship. It's not working? Okay, you're both fired. That's how it SHOULD be.

2. We parlayed the #3 overall pick into getting the second best receiver in the draft. And one extra first round pick the following year. The correct play was staying at 12. The value we got to move down 9 spots was excellent, then we immediately pissed it all away to move back up to 6. Looking at how far we are from being an actual contender only makes this worse. This is the time to look for value, not move up for "one special player".

3. Grier constantly moves up in early -to -mid rounds for guys that turn into "just a guy". The latest example if Eichenburg, the reason we don't have our 2022 third round pick. Why? Yes, he started. He also graded out very poorly vs left tackles across the league.

4. Too many draft misses. Yes, Flores was getting more power year over year. Yes, he had to "signoff" on draft picks. I don't for one second believe he built the draft board though. If he wanted a corner, Trevon Diggs was on the board. That pick turned out excellent for Dallas. That's just one example but representing Iggy as a first round value is a huge mistake, and HAS to fall on the GM and scouts. If Flores wanted a corner, at least get him the RIGHT corner. The same argument holds true for Austin Jackson. If he's hell bent on improving the line, give him a pick that makes sense to do that for him.

5. Failure to use free agency correctly. Grier has tried two different approaches. He breaks the bank one year, then spends nothing the next year. Both approaches have utterly failed. The first time he bought a ton of players that lasted all of one season before being shown the door. The next year he spent less money, and in return signed no one of any value to the team. Sure there were some role players. His best signings to date have been Ogbah and Jones. His Jones signing had the bonus effect of pissing off his only blue chip player in X Howard. What a mess.

6. Values the wrong positions. He spends $15 million on a receiver (Fuller) instead of signing the best center in the league. He breaks the bank for Van Noy, but shops in the bargain bin for guards and tackles. This on a team that hasn't had a good offensive line in decades. Yet we are mystified why the offense is never a good unit. He will say he wants to build the trenches but his moves say otherwise.

Grier bashing? Hell yeah, I'm always down with that!

Grier is that guy in the casino who wins big right off the bat, but instead of taking his money and leaving, he keeps right on gambling and ends up walking out with just a fraction of what he won to begin with.

I still don't get why he couldn't have just traded down from 3 to 6. Yes, he ended up with an extra first NEXT year (who knows if he'll even be around to waste--I mean, use it) but nooo, he had to be greedy and keep wheeling and dealing and cheat himself out of his own pick, which would've been better than the one he ended up with! And throw away a 3rd on yet another bum O-lineman who somehow everybody except Grier knew had arms too short to play OT.

Oh well, at least I'm not emotionally invested anymore.

The only team that comes to mind that I would say intentionally tanked is the Colts, when they started Curtis Painter at QB...CURTIS PAINTER!!!!...to guarantee that they'd be able to draft Andrew Luck. I can't think of another blatant example of tanking.