is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

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is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by mercury22nathan on Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:24 am

two major reasons why the Phins current offense will never be successful...

Issue 1: Why doesn’t Tannehill have the freedom to change to any play he wants?

As a Dolphins player explained, Lazor gives Tannehill two options on some plays (usually one run, one pass) and Tannehill can call either, depending on the defensive look. But he cannot call anything other than those two plays. But on many other plays, Tannehill goes to the line with one play and isn’t allowed to change that play at all.

“It’s a big mistake,” Gannon said last week. “If you can’t change protections and change plays on the fly at this level, you’re in big trouble.”

I asked Tannehill if he’s tempted to ask Lazor to give him permission to change to any play he wants or a lot more than two.

“We’ve had conversations,” Tannehill said. “But he’s the coordinator.”

This isn’t the way every team does it.

Receiver Kenny Stills, who spent his first two seasons in New Orleans, said Drew Brees had the authority to audible to any play he wants at the line of scrimmage. Does that make it more difficult or confusing for the other players?

“No,” Stills said. “It gives us an advantage because we can see what the defense is giving us” and the quarterback can then adjust.

Dolphins and former Green Bay receiver Greg Jennings said Aaron Rodgers “had a lot more freedom that Ryan does. We don’t run audibles here. The adjustments we make are with protection, not changing the play.”

So why don’t the Dolphins give Tannehill the freedom to change to any play he wants?

“When you do that, there’s two schools of thought,” interim coach Dan Campbell said Thursday. “When you do that, certainly Ryan can handle that mentally but you take the chance it slows him down in his rhythm. You open the full playbook up, those are sometimes the problems you run into. I’ll be honest with you. His first few years with Mike Sherman, he somewhat had that a little bit.

“He had a lot of options he could do. He did a good job of getting us into the right plays and protection, but we felt like it slowed him down a little bit with his rhythm. We felt like he could be a better passer by taking a little bit of a load off of him. And he is throwing the ball better.”

Gannon criticized the Dolphins’ restrictive audible policy after unblocked Eagles players sacked Tannehill twice on blitzes last week.

Tannehill said on the first one, which resulted in a safety, he had the option to make a short throw before the blitzer swallowed him up on his blind side.

That throw, if attempted, likely would have gone to tight end Dion Sims, who said his assignment on that play was to go out in coverage. “That was my fault,” Tannehill said.

But Tannehill said on the other sack, the play called by Lazor did not give him the ability to change to a quick, short throw, which seemingly could have helped avoid a sack.

“We felt we were all right on those plays, but they got us,” backup quarterback Matt Moore said. “Our execution has to be on point when we don’t have the freedom to change the play.”

Center Mike Pouncey said “me and the right guard [Billy Turner] have to do a better job coming over” and picking up the blitzer on those plays. He made clear that right tackle Jason Fox wasn’t to blame on either.

Lazor continues to play the semantic game with the audible issue, saying he believes there were four occasions last week when Tannehill changed the play. But he changed the play to a second option that Lazor had made available to him.

“I watched in the Jet game, him walk up, make the call, change it,” Lazor said. “He changes it with words, he changes it with hand signals, hopefully subtly. He audibled at the line of scrimmage against the Eagles. Certain play we could have called the play with motion or line up and shift to it, and he had a chance to call the way he wanted it to, run and pass. You know me enough to know I'm not lying.”

He's not lying, but he's telling only a small part of the story. And the full story is Tannehill cannot go to the line of scrimmage (or the huddle, for that matter) and call any play he pleases.

Issue 2: Gannon, like fans, wondered why the Dolphins --- on third down --- run so many routes that are short of the first-down marker.

Two issues are at play here: “Sometimes, we allow the defense to dictate our routes, and that’s our fault,” Stills said.

But Stills said other times, the routes called are intentionally short of the yardage needed to make the first down because Miami’s offense is “designed to catch and run.”

The Dolphins’ 5.8 yards-after-catch average ranks 11th in the league. But the Dolphins nevertheless are converting only 29.5 percent of their third downs, second-worst in the league and ahead of only St. Louis.

Lazor said on one occasion last week, a receiver did not run a route deep enough.

“There was a play run last week that was caught short of the sticks that was disappointing,” Lazor said. “Sometimes on third and long, we complete a decent number of passes that have been short of the sticks. He shouldn't be short of the sticks, but the guy getting the check down ends up getting [the ball]. If they cover what you have intended down the field, that happens.”

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/sports-buzz/2015/11/exploring-exasperating-dolphins-issues-including-tannehills-lack-of-freedom-on-audibles-um-coach-sea.html

1. the Phins don't audible because they don't think Tannehill can handle it.
2. "routes called are intentionally short of the yardage needed to make the first down"?!?! that's fine once in a while, but when its the basis of your offense, the defense has no fear that you'll go over the top. they only have to sit on the sticks and tackle what is in front of them. its like only having to cover 10-yards (or less) of the field on any given play. so is Lazor "intentionally" keeping things short because he thinks Tannehill just doesn't have the ability to throw it deep?

the above quotes kind of make me think that at the very least Tannehill (“But he’s the coordinator.”), Stills and Jennings are not that enthusiastic about the design the the Phins offense.

and then there is this...

...he will spend plenty of practice time on quarterback runs. It’s something Tannehill is capable of doing it, and Campbell wants to see him do it more.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/20/dan-campbell-wants-ryan-tannehill-to-run-more/

and now the coach needs to tell Tannehill when to run and not to run?

i don't know, can't be trusted to audible, can't throw deep and doesn't know when to run or not (along with his lack of pocket presence) - maybe the Phins need to go back to the drawing board at the QB position.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:39 am

It's no surprise that Brees and Rodgers have more freedom than Ryan Tannehill...after all, they are both Hall of Famers and Tannehill is, well, yeah...

Lazor is so full of crap. Yeah, Tannehill changes plays at times - but only from a run to a pass in the same formation. That's not an audible. The inability to change formations and protections in the face of an obvious blitz is the problem. Teams know that Tannehilll can't change the formation or protection, so they can just blitz whenever they want, and they know that it will work.

But even more concerning is the fact that Tannehill can't read the defense properly pre-snap. The safety last week is a perfect example. It was obvious pre-snap that a DB was blitzing off the left edge of the offense - where Sims was lined up. Now, we know Tannehill couldn't change the protection so that Sims could block that DB, BUT at the very least he should've seen the blitzer and then thrown the ball to Sims - who was wide open where the blitzer came from. Instead, Tannehill very clearly NEVER even looked at that side of the formation at all, and in turn got absolutely crushed from behind by the blitzing DB. As a QB, you absolutely have to see that blitzer and react accordingly. That was a colossal mistake by Tannehill.

Just a bad scene all around.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by white1 on Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:58 am

It's still highly possible in my mind that Tannehill turns out to be a classic "coach killer".

Does just enough to put up stats suggesting he can be a top 10 NFL QB. Plays lights out in a few games, offering hope he can gain consistency and perform at a high level more often.

In the end, folds in critical situations and makes enough mistakes to get the team beaten.

Bad recipe.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:54 am

white1 wrote:It's still highly possible in my mind that Tannehill turns out to be a classic "coach killer".

Does just enough to put up stats suggesting he can be a top 10 NFL QB.  Plays lights out in a few games, offering hope he can gain consistency and perform at a high level more often.

In the end, folds in critical situations and makes enough mistakes to get the team beaten.

Bad recipe.

Yeah, the more I watch Tannehill the more I think he's just a compiler...a player that puts up decent stats, but isn't really very good when you need him the most. Like I've been saying, to me he seems like just another player on the team - and that's really not how you want to describe your starting QB.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by finfanatic on Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:53 am

I agree with W1 completely.

Tannehill's lack of consistency has already gotten Sherman shytecanned, Philbin poleaxed, and now may get the entire coaching staff cut.

The Phins have a host of OTHER problems as well, but IMHO, most of those other problems would be ameliorated with some consistently GOOD QB play.

I thought it at the time on Hard Knocks when I saw Tannehill having to ask Moore if the (Redskins???) were in the Phins division....This guy PLAYS football, but he is not a FOOTBALL PLAYER. To him football is just a job. Nothing to get too upset about if the team loses the last game of the season with the playoffs on the line! Ho hum! Another not so good day at the office.

At some point, SOMEBODY in the Phins "braintrust" (an appellation, not what I would consider accurate!) is going to have to realize, "You know, MAYBE Tannehill IS the problem!!"

The cap numbers are going to make it hard, but I think a major rebuild is going to be required to get this team out of the AFC East cellar. And as long as Tannehill is the QB, the offense is NEVER going to be CONSISTENT IMO.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by Degarmo on Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:42 pm

Sherman was a terrible coordinator, and Tannehill was a just coming into this league.

Tannehill gets out of a rhythm? That's horseshit coachspeak right there. Just when I thought Campbell didn't have that in him. Too bad.

I'd like to see Tannehill with a good coordinator that tailors the offense to the talent, including the QB, allow the kid to make the decisions now that he'll be going into his fifth year, and put an offensive line out there that's at least decent.

As far as being a compiler, when you're not allowed to change what you're doing in the fourth quarter when defenses gamble more, guess what you're going to be able to do? Absolutely nothing. Lazor is in over his head with this piddly-shit college offense.

Let's open up everything for Tannehill to do it, because he hasn't been allowed to yet . . . and that includes that nebulous horseshit coachspeak statement by Campbell that he was allowed to do that a little bit under Sherman. A little bit? Yeah, that's because Sherman sent him to the line with THREE OPTIONS. We're not so fucking stupid that we have forgotten Sherman's for-shit schemes and playcalling.

When Tannehill has been at his best, his most rhythmic, has been moving in the pocket in the two-minute drill. When they've called timeout in those drills and put him back out there with their "best play" he typically isn't nearly as good.

Maybe, just maybe, he's a ball player, and you just need to get the fuck out of his way and let him be what he can be. At the absolute least, you HAVE to let him have the chance to run the whole thing, because if you don't, we'll never know, and that could be a terrible mistake.

The defense makes two stops last year, two plays, we're in the playoffs. Philbin doesn't shit the bed with clock management and timeouts in four games, we make the playoffs.

Tannehill may not be an all-timer, but he's what we've got, because we're not going to be in position to get anyone else, unless Ross cuts a deal with Kraft and Goodell to get in on winning one of the Patriot "off year" super bowls.

I continue to hear two things from y'all. First is, we need to keep drafting QBs and challenge Tannehill; but then I hear, our front office can't pick for squat so why bother to worry about picks. . . so, which is it? Because the former is pointless to do if the latter is going to be the case.

If they go out and get Sean Payton to coach this team and handle this QB, let's see what he can do. We don't rightly have any choice anyway because we're not getting a rookie to replace Tannehill next season anywawy.

Also, it seems like saying Tannehill got Sherman and Philbin fired is a ridiculous statement. I'll make a deal with y'all, I'll go ahead and sign off on the deal to trade Tannehill, try and draft a rookie QB, and then bring back Philbin and Sherman, because obviously they were good coaches and got everything they could out of Tannehill.

What a bunch of nonsense.
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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:14 pm

I think you're all making valid arguments here.

But the bottom line is, we are committed to Tannehill for at least one more season at a pretty high salary. With that in mind, it is within the best interest of the organization to see what kind of QB he really is. Take the damn handcuffs off, and let it rip.

Step one in that process is to hire a competent offensive coordinator. Let him teach Tannehill the system and hand him the reigns to the offense. That's the ONLY way we're going to know what we have in Tannehill. This training wheels bullshit is a major fail.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by white1 on Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:27 pm

Great post, Degarmo and you make some excellent arguments.

I'm compelled to clarify my point a bit. I HAVE NOT made up my mind on Tannehill. Going into this season, I was a huge supporter of him. What I'm saying now - is the jury in my mind is officially out. I'm not sure if he is as good as we hoped he would be. That's not to say we cut him loose right now, and make the determination that he is just never going to be the guy. "Coach killer" in my usage of the term is a way to try and sum up what I'm seeing on the field - too many bad plays in critical situations, leading to losses, while putting up good to very good QBR statistics.

degarmo wrote:If they go out and get Sean Payton to coach this team and handle this QB, let's see what he can do. We don't rightly have any choice anyway because we're not getting a rookie to replace Tannehill next season anyway.

This would certainly be an intriguing development. A guy like Payton has not only proven he can win, he is a proven, veteran head coach with the ability to field a dangerous offense and assemble a qualified veteran staff. I, for one, would be excited to see us hire him. I know the Saints are nothing special this year, but I believe largely they have personnel problems with the roster and Payton is taking the fall for it.

Even the best coaches have bad years, look at Coughlin in NY.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:05 pm

Tannenbaum loves to trade away draft picks, and he loves to make a big splash. That makes Payton a very real possibility for Miami.

Personally, I don't want Payton...he's on a downward trend and I don't want to trade picks.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JEGnj on Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:23 pm

TanneSACK! How can you have an NFL QB that can't pass down field? The Miami Dolphin's playbook is either a reverse, pitch, screen, or SACK,
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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by Degarmo on Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:26 pm

He threw two perfect long passes today in that shitbomb of a football game.
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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by CarsonChris on Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:47 pm

I want to see a downfield passing attack. We need a new QB

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:03 pm

Tannehill was absolutely awful today. A few nice passes, and a whole lot of crap. He basically pissed away the entire first half till that final drive (with a short field...) We have a horrible OC and an hideously bad OL, but Tannehill clearly isn't the answer.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by finfanatic on Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:53 pm

JMP wrote:Tannehill was absolutely awful today.  A few nice passes, and a whole lot of crap.  He basically pissed away the entire first half till that final drive (with a short field...)  We have a horrible OC and an hideously bad OL, but Tannehill clearly isn't the answer.

No, no JMP. Don't be talking nonsense. A bunch of nonsense no less.

Tannehill is a victim of the coaching staff. His brilliance is stifled by the coaching staff and only he could get the RIGHT HC, the Phins would be bound for the promised land!!!

Laughing

I agree with you though. The Phins have a host of problems, but many of them could be ameliorated with consistently good play from the QB position. not ALL of them. but most of them IMO.

Lazor's problem seems to be an unfounded confidence in Tannehill's abilities. If he would attempt to HIDE Tannehill and rely on the rushing attack more, we might see some improvement.

But then again, what do I know?

I thought it was glaringly OBVIOUS that inconsistent QBs get their OCs and HCs fired. Rolling Eyes

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by Degarmo on Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:40 pm

It is what it is.
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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by rightchea on Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:13 pm

He don't change the plays because he can't read the D. He doesn't go up to the line a change the blocking scheme or anything. He can't see the blitz and for the fact that his contract is the way it is means a lot

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by DolFan 316 on Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:53 pm

How is ti that the Bucs and Jags both seem to have drafted better QBs in the first round recently? Winston already looks better than Tannehill in half a season, and even Bortles seems in the process of passing him by now.

I will forever be angry at the '11 team for being stupid enough to suddenly decide to start trying after starting off 0-7 Evil or Very Mad The repercussions from that abject dumbassery will be felt for at least 3 more years.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by Degarmo on Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:10 am

I'm sure RGIII will be available. I seem to remember a lot of folks salivating over him.
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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by DolFan 316 on Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:52 am

Fins actually could've had both Wilson and Kuechly in that draft without having to even make any trades.

(Starts weeping.)

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by rightchea on Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:09 pm

Degarmo wrote:I'm sure RGIII will be available.  I seem to remember a lot of folks salivating over him.


The injury prone bust that shouldn't be on anyone team at the moment. I rather Tannehill. I say that it more Miami fault but I still believe that Tannehill can't read the defense. But if it is true that Lazar only gives Tannehill two plays to work with per down then that is a problem within itself.

Tannehill should be able to change to whatever play that he wants too. With a new coaching staff we will really see if Tannehill can read the D properly.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by finfanatic on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:05 pm

We have two options to choose from here, neither of which is very good news for the Phins IMHO.

One - Lazor is an out and out idiot who is such a freaking control freak, he would rather get fired than give the QB any chance at calling his own plays. I mean, Lazor's JOB is on the line here, so he is either an idiot who does not care that he could be unemployed by not letting Tannehill call his own plays....OR.....

Two - They have TRIED to let Tannehill call his own plays and Tannehill was a complete and utter failure at doing it, so the OC is taking the heat for Tannehill's piss poor football instincts and knowledge....OR....

TWO A - Tannehill DOES not want to call the plays himself? He is not confident enough in his ability to call the correct play, he would rather rely on Lazor?

I mean, WHY would an OC choose NOT to allow the QB to be more successful. Calling a play at the LOS to get out of bad play and into a better play or take advantage of a defensive shift seems to be the logical thing to do on offense IMO.

So, I am thinking there has to be a reason. Either Lazor (and Campbell now, as well as Philbin of late) are complete morons, or there is something else afoot.

I doubt we ever find out though.

Unless one of these guys gets fired and is so mad he comes clean and spills all?

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by HalCHorn on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:33 pm

Degarmo wrote:I'm sure RGIII will be available.  I seem to remember a lot of folks salivating over him.

Colin Kaepernick seems sure to be available as well, and Johnny Manziel appears well on his way to being cut. I think as reclamation projects go I'd rather roll the dice with Kaepernick than the other two at this point.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by rightchea on Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:45 pm

finfanatic wrote:

TWO A - Tannehill DOES not want to call the plays himself?  He is not confident enough in his ability to call the correct play, he would rather rely on Lazor?

I mean, WHY would an OC choose NOT to allow the QB to be more successful. Calling a play at the LOS to get out of bad play and into a better play or take advantage of a defensive shift seems to be the logical thing to do on offense IMO.


The fact that Lazor is that controlling might be an issue. Either way getting rid of Lazlo needs to happen. Poor playcalling falls on him and not Tannehill.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by DolFan 316 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:55 pm

finfanatic wrote:So, I am thinking there has to be a reason. Either Lazor (and Campbell now, as well as Philbin of late) are complete morons, or there is something else afoot.

I doubt we ever find out though.

Unless one of these guys gets fired and is so mad he comes clean and spills all?

I already told everybody what it is--the burial ground curse. It makes everyone and anyone associated with this team stupid until they leave. That's how curses work.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

Post by JMP on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:01 pm

Well, the no audible thing is all about the scheme. Lazor's offense is supposed to be a variation of Chip Kelly's up-tempo offense. In that offense, things move so quickly that there really isn't time for audibles...and that's OK, because the D usually doesn't have time to show anything exotic.

The problem is, the Dolphins don't run an up-tempo offense. But, despite this, Lazor still doesn't use audibles in his system. In other words, there's a flaw in Lazor's system, and we're stuck with a typical Miami Dolphins square peg, round hole situation: Lazor is dictating the offense as if it's up-tempo, when in reality it's not up-tempo at all...if anything, I'd call it slow-tempo!

So, yeah, Lazor's an idiot.

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Re: is the offense flawed or is it Tannehill - maybe both

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