Fire Grier

The Not For Long league has had quite a few coaches and some GM's lose their jobs this season. I've said this for a few years now, Grier must be fired! 

This team has continually been beaten by teams that out physical us. The team has one of if not the top defensive coordinator in the NFL. He hasn't been able to scheme a good game against teams that punch us in the mouth. Why?  It's the lack of top tier defensive players. Grier has picked some solid players over the years but his busts far outweigh his hits. 

On offense, I present to you the offensive line. December is upon us and we are a MASH unit. When Omar states, "Pray for the line!" You know we have an issue.  This was an issue prior to the season and something we failed to address properly. You can say this about our line for decades. 

The best teams have physical lines on both sides of the ball. 

Running back with Mostert has been good and also with Achane. The issue is short yardage and running when everyone knows you're going to run. Achane is undersized to play the position. I don't expect longevity from him at the position. 

This team needs an infusion of physical players. Grier doesn't seem to find them preferring nuance to force.

I agree on the lack of physicality. But the OL had been excellent all season, until every except Jackson got hurt. We've been without Armstead, Wynn, Hunt, Lamm, Williams, Eich, Cotton, and Jones at various times. That's not a GM problem. Injuries suck, but they happen.

Grier will not get fired, not after back to back playoff appearances and 4 consecutive winning seasons.
I know things don't feel good right now, but we are leading the division with a 9-4 record, currently sitting at #2 in the conference. This season is far from over.

Grier has built the best roster we've had in decades. Let's see how or plays out.

The only one that needs to get fired is STs coach Danny Crossman. That unit has been terrible under his watch.

The best roster in decades is only decent because of FA acquisitions. It's not built for longevity. While FA acquisitions are sometimes necessary this team has to rely on them to build any sort of good team. The best teams build through the draft.  As far as depth goes this team is terrible with its depth. This falls on Grier.

Its another fascinating topic on par with "What do we do with Tua."

If we are able to win today, it will be Tua earning his money. Hill out and TONS of injuries including 3/4 of our starting defensive backfield, not to mention the patchwork O line and missing Phillips, Baker, etc.

I was just coming to the board to say "hey, didn't these injuries start with like the first episode of Hard Knocks?" If the NFL wanted to jinx us - well mission accomplished.

CarsonChris wrote:The best roster in decades is only decent because of FA acquisitions. It's not built for longevity. While FA acquisitions are sometimes necessary this team has to rely on them to build any sort of good team. The best teams build through the draft.  As far as depth goes this team is terrible with its depth. This falls on Grier.

I agree, the team is not yet built for the long haul. But that's OK if we can win this year and/or next and add some key rookies as we move along.

FA acquisitions and trades are part of the GM's report card. Grier excels in those areas. He has also drafted many core players.

The depth is not terrible. We've been winning with backup OL, and we won today with backups at 3 of 4 DB positions - with all the backups making plays. Duke Riley has been excellent as the backup MLB. AVG and Ogbah have combined to make up for the Phillips loss.

My only problems with Grier are 1) his drafting strategy and 2) he signs oft-injured players as free agents.

1) Armstead? How about Will Fuller? I used to have a long list of them and am not willing to go look it up.

2) OC Creed Humphrey instead of Eichenberg anyone? How about OLineman Zach Tom instead of LB Tindall. How about Buffalo's starting LG O'Cyrus Torrence this year instead of CB Smith who can barely get on the field? Now, you can pick out these sort of things for just about any GM who is in the game long enough, but there does seem to be a pattern emerging IMO. Namely, Grier seems to think the Oline doesn't warrant a high pick?

That said, Grier has been dealing with some severely depleted drafts, so let's hope when he has more picks, his draft decisions might make a bit more sense? But probably not I am thinking.

And arguably, Grier has a point. How often do you lose all five Oline starters at one time during a season?

Still, how nice would it be to have Zach Tom and O'Cyrus Torrence ready to step in on the Oline rather than Tindall and Smith on special teams coverage units?

finfanatic wrote:Grier seems to think the Oline doesn't warrant a high pick?

Grier drafted Jackson in the first round, Hunt in the second round, Eich in the second round. All high draft picks.

And the line was still weak and he stopped using high picks on the OL and drafted a LB who is condemned to STs while a lower round LB is playing on defense (Goode) and a CB who is so good he can't get on the field. And he drafted those players while staring at two Olinemen who are starting for their teams.

This is an easy question, would you rather have Channing Tindall or OT Zach Tom. OG O'Cyrus Torrence or Cam Smith?

The bad thing IMO, is... Grier would not have drafted Tom or Torrence had Tindall or Smith been gone. He did not think he needed anymore help on the Oline IMO.

So I was listening to the local sports radio (I live in the Washington/Baltimore market) and as the Commanders were taking on the Rams, there was a lot of talk about Shanahan/McVay/McDaniel systems. They had a LA sports columnist on and she kept referencing a podcast called “The Playcallers” in which they take a deep dive into the system.

https://theathletic.com/podcast/286-the-playcallers/

I think it can be found wherever you young people find podcasts. I have not as of yet listened to it (perhaps in the offseason). But I think it might be a good idea as they apparently go into the types of players they look for at different positions.

finfanatic wrote:And the line was still weak and he stopped using high picks on the OL.

And so this is why I bring up the podcast. In the above refenced interview, the columnist basically said they do not look to draft o-linemen (or RBs) very high as the thought process is their o-linemen are interchangeable. They don’t look for the highly prized (and highly drafted) guys who typically fill power running schemes. They look for later round guys that show athletic traits of the zone scheme and are shifty (basically can get in defenders way or use movement/momentum against them – not necessarily knock them out of the way). They just don’t put a high draft value on olinemen (although I imagine they would if there was a unique talent available – and no other worthy guys at higher valued positions).

I guess to a certain degree this has been validated as Miami has lost a lot of olinemen to injury and yet new guys get plugged in and the oline continued to perform (perhaps not optimum) at a reasonably satisfactory level. So I guess we shouldn’t hold out breath looking for highly drafted olinemen – apparently it is not a requirement of the system.
and this would possibly explain why no olinemen have been drafted in the higher rounds (or will be) since McDaniel took over.

Very interesting point. In OUR system, this starting line was playing very well - if not excellent: Armstead, Eichenburg, Williams, Hunt, Jackson.

Now, that's two free agents (and Armstead very expensive), a 1st round pick, and two 2nds.

But as you point out, even when we play with multiple backups (at times 4 or even all 5) the line still holds up much better than say, the Jets, who are an absolute disaster up front.

What this approach COULD do is allow the team to skip a guy like Tunsil in favor of Waddle. Or use the priority picks on defense like corners, pass rushers, etc.

finfanatic wrote:And the line was still weak and he stopped using high picks on the OL and drafted a LB who is condemned to STs while a lower round LB is playing on defense (Goode) and a CB who is so good he can't get on the field. And he drafted those players while staring at two Olinemen who are starting for their teams.

This is an easy question, would you rather have Channing Tindall or OT Zach Tom. OG O'Cyrus Torrence or Cam Smith?

The bad thing IMO, is... Grier would not have drafted Tom or Torrence had Tindall or Smith been gone. He did not think he needed anymore help on the Oline IMO.

Every team in the league passed on Torrence, some multiple times. He had medical concerns and was labeled as having terrible conditioning and work habits. Tom was drafted in round 4 and no one had him rated as a top player. You can routinely question any GM's picks in rounds 4-7...it's a complete crapshoot.

Bottom line is, we're 10-4 and have used backup linemen all season. It hasn't wrecked our season.

Not sure what thread I mentioned this in but the truth is it really don’t matter who we could have drafted or who we didn’t. Grier and McD must be colluding. There is no other way to say it. As rewarded as Austin Jackson is and the “great” turnaround he’s had. Do we really ask our online to block longer than 2 secs? We absolutely do not. The problem is in a traditional offense we equate pass blocking by sacks. But is it really that? I mean if Tua is on his first read then it’s really hard to see the bad pass pro. Let’s say it’s third and long. Now let’s see if the pass pro holds up. Like in the end of the game situations when you know they’re coming? How did that work out for us? Simple, it didn’t. We consistently fail on pass pro on drop backs of 5-7 yards. It ain’t happening.

We had the worse line in football 2 years ago. We had the worse WR separation in that same time. We have better receivers now. But the schemed protection can be accomplished by anybody in my opinion. My case in point. We don’t really need armstead in there until 3rd and long because Kendall Lammas and kiln smith can do the same thing at a serious discount and they are more available than he is. I haven’t heard anyone speak about the game kion smith played but they talk about eich. Nor do we hear how Kendall lamm got beat up.

finfanatic wrote:...who can barely get on the field?

just noting for FF's benefit.

Linebacker Channing Tindall and cornerback Cam Smith: It’s not that they didn’t play well, but more so that the young players weren’t able to get defensive snaps late in a blowout win. Smith was dealing with a hamstring injury late in the game but as the Dolphins emptied their bench, it was Calvin Munson, who just rejoined the team two weeks ago, who got snaps over Tindall. Neither player has been able to make a significant contribution on defense despite being the team’s top pick in each of the last two drafts.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nfl/miami-dolphins/article283080423.html

i do agree that it sucks when our most highly drafted guys do not pan out (although maybe these guys will turn the corner - but it better be soon) while other players at their (and other positions of need) positions seem to hit the field running. and it is especially frustrating when its 2 picks in a row at the same position (Iggy and Cam) - i suspect we'll see another CB taken relatively high by the Phins again this year. but i am not in the fire Grier camp for one simple reason...

as long as McDaniel is fine working with him, i think you have to let them ride or die together. simply firing Grier would be yet another unnecessary half measure and might even be pulling the rug out from underneath McDaniel depending on who they replaced him with. nope, for now, i say Grier and McDaniel are a package deal - unless/until McDaniel feels otherwise.

I was not advocating for Grier's removal, simply pointing out my chief "concerns" with Grier.

There may well be several reasons for Grier's not drafting Olinemen with high or high-ish picks.

And again... Losing four or five starting Olineman is something fairly rare I would think.

All I can say it the new O Line coach is working miracles it seems.

Great posts here by white and umix. I think there's something to it for sure, and I agree that we don't need top-ranked linemen to do well in this system. BUT - I do think we need to make a strong investment at center. With the Williams injury, I don't see a need to re-sign him - certainly not to a big deal. So I'd like to draft a center in round 2 or 3...or is Eich the answer??? If he plays well these final three games, maybe he (surprisingly) is!

Free agency will determine what we do at the other positions...will Wynn and Hunt be back? What about Lamm? Is Armstead going to retire? Too many questions to really make an educated guess now - but regardless, I do not see a first round pick being used on OL.

JMP wrote:........Free agency will determine what we do at the other positions...will Wynn and Hunt be back?  What about Lamm?  Is Armstead going to retire?  Too many questions to really make an educated guess now - but regardless, I do not see a first round pick being used on OL.

Armstead, Ced Wilson, Ogbah are all keys to next years roster. As well as, restructuring a very good amount of contracts. Looking at the horizon, AVG, Phillips, Waddle, and Tua. Then the complexity of Wilkins makes this almost impossible. Grier will get scrutinized more than Tua and there's really nothing or no one to blame. When was the last time that we were in a situation where that many people were balling out?????? I'm waiting..........!!!! Still waiting........!!!!!

But here is the truth above all truths...... Miami is #1-#5 in every statistical offensive category with....wait for it......SCHEMED PROTECTION!!!!!!! Now, could you imagine if we actually had an offensive line, that you know, could actually pass protect without having the QB throw 2 seconds or less? With the same offensive weapons? Imagine having a full playbook to utilize instead of the scaled down lets protect Tua and not put him at risk playbook?

Where would the Dolphins be statistically if we could block more than 3 seconds with all that speed on the field? Look at what he's doing with less than 2 seconds!

Excellent point, Umix!

It really is a complicated thought process when it comes to OL...so many things to consider!

No, it is not that complicated.

Better OLinemen are Better for any scheme. Period. End of story.

Now, if you want to argue that getting better Olinemen will cost you the CB, DT, or WR that could be a Pro Bowler... then we have an argument.

But I do agree with Umix in that this Phins Off season is going to be VITALLY
important for the future of the franchise. Big... BIG... Really Big decisions to make
that will determine the fate of the team!

finfanatic wrote:No, it is not that complicated.

I was referring to what we do with all the free agents we have at OL. Grier is going to be a busy man!

finfanatic wrote:

Better OLinemen are Better for any scheme. Period. End of story.

I disagree. "Better" is a relative term. In the Dolphins case, it's all about scheme fit. The so-called "best" offensive linemen in the draft may not be scheme fits. As a simple example, we need athletic linemen. A specific lineman that isn't all that athletic may be a great player - but would not be a good player for the Dolphins OL. The zone blocking scheme we use is not a good match for everyone.

JMP wrote:

finfanatic wrote:

Better OLinemen are Better for any scheme. Period. End of story.

I disagree.  "Better" is a relative term.  In the Dolphins case, it's all about scheme fit.  The so-called "best" offensive linemen in the draft may not be scheme fits. As a simple example, we need athletic linemen.  A specific lineman that isn't all that athletic may be a great player - but would not be a good player for the Dolphins OL.  The zone blocking scheme we use is not a good match for everyone.

I believe thats what FF is saying. I think if we can get those that can be incorporated into the schemed protection "BUT", can excel at "LONGER DROP" protections then we will be virtually 'IMPOSSIBLE" to stop. If you consider the two polar opposite spectrums, understanding that its <2 seconds and >2 seconds and his statiscal efficiency, we can honestly say that pass pro longer than 2 seconds is an issue.

We dont want to lose what we have but improve on what we cant do. Is it better lineman, is it scheme, is it coaching, or is it playcalling? We dont know because we havent seen any improvement.

Where the O line is concerned I want bigger, stronger, faster. The oline is a mirage in this system. The offensive scheme relies on the quick pass not the protection. This works great until a stronger unit disrupts the offensive timing then the inferior Oline is clear as day. We get abused. The offensive line must be built to protect Tua from the most physical teams and specifically the Bills since we play them twice per year. While speaking about O lines the 49ers is one of if not the most physical in football. 

I want this team to get to the next level. I believe we have the coaching. I believe we have the skill players. I don't believe we have the O line.  We must get more physical in the trenches!

Umix10 wrote:

We dont want to lose what we have but improve on what we cant do.  

I love this statement. Well said! If we can improve the pass blocking and add a legit #3 passing game weapon, this already-great offense levels up.

CarsonChris wrote:Where the O line is concerned I want bigger, stronger, faster. The oline is a mirage in this system. The offensive scheme relies on the quick pass not the protection. This works great until a stronger unit disrupts the offensive timing then the inferior Oline is clear as day. We get abused. The offensive line must be built to protect Tua from the most physical teams and specifically the Bills since we play them twice per year. While speaking about O lines the 49ers is one of if not the most physical in football. 

I want this team to get to the next level. I believe we have the coaching. I believe we have the skill players. I don't believe we have the O line.  We must get more physical in the trenches!

Yep, I would love to see a more physical line that doesn't get pushed around against the Bills, Eagles, Chiefs and other nasty DLs. It's not easy to find big, strong, physical OL that are also athletic - but it can be done.

It’s the silver lining if we can’t compete over next three weeks.

McDaniel is too smart and Grier will get him what he needs. If we can’t hold up on the line a revamp is coming. All the free agents give us the flexibility to make drastic changes that’s the upside